Weapons of MoroLand Mindanao

Hi,
I have a plaque of the weapons of the MoroLand along with the spear and shields.

Pretty crude if you look at what the Spartans and the western culture had when the time of the movie 300 is all about. This is a time in the 500BC era.

http://www.hellenic-art.com/armour/sword.htm

So where did the swords come from, where did they get their knowledge of the steel that was to become famous in the swords of Damascus and the Islands of Japan and China and ultimatly to the Islands of the Philippines?

Maybe it came by way of the Greeks and Macedonians who got clear up into the Punjab area of now Pakistan (but was india then) the Indian Empire and to the Islands by way of the Muslim (much later) or by way of the Visayans of early heritage.

http://www.vizvoyz.freeservers.com/custom.html

Regards, Gary

 

ahh... this should prove to be an interesting thread.

 

Iron working spread to Asia long before the Greek & Macedonian empire, the ancient Hittite’s who lived in Anatolia which is now part of modern-day Turkey were working Iron long be for the Macedonian empire.
Centuries later the Anatolia region was conquered by the Persian Empire (the same Persian Empire who fight the Spartans in the movie the 300) who them selves had impressive weaponry, again before Alexander & the Macedonian empire.

Ancient Greek weapons would look just as crude as the MoroLand weapons if they weren’t made in the same way as the modern reproductions in your 1st link. By the way I find your second link interesting it sort of conflicts with your kali theory as it states the Sri Vishaya were Buddhist & Animists not Hindu’s
http://www.vizvoyz.freeservers.com/custom.html

 

I noticed that also about the Sri Vishaya, always to only post what you want is not the way to the truth So if Buddha and Hindu were not here in the earlier days of the Islands what was? Animists? Is a good thought. IMHO.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism

But with the above it still does not weaken the Hindu thought IMHO...
To many Islands and to many beliefs to stop that thought pattern.

Gary

 

Even in many places that are today predominately Buddhist or Hindu in SE Asia and Central Asia there are still many remnants of animism among peoples daily habits and belief systems. Many bits of animistic practice have been absorbed into both Buddhism and Hinduism. Pretty much to the point that it's indecipherable where one starts and and another ends.

 

have you ever thought that weapons first developed endemically, then was influenced by outside pressures but then again remains true to the needs of the people?

some of those "weapons" have also lived as farmtools and jungle machetes.

weapons in the philippines didn't have to be elaborate, they just had to be effective.

 

Which reminds me of an anecdote that I'd heard... when a European explorer landed on the beach in the Philipines he waded ashore wearing a metal breast plate and raised his metal sword - proclaiming the land for Spain(?) - he was then summarily beaten to death by natives wielding wooden sticks.

at any rate... Magellan was killed by Filipino natives led by Lapu-lapu in the Battle of Mactan. Among other weapons that he was hacked to death with was the native Kampilan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mactan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kampilan

 

Some interesting stuff here:
http://old.blades.free.fr/

On a funny side note... look at the size of the feet of these guys.
Huuuuuge. From a lifetime of running around barefoot. Their balances, sense of proprioception and traction would have been impressive.

 

And here is the 19th century depiction of the death of Magellan:

 

There are so many things wrong with this I almost don't want to reply. Almost.

On the weapons of Moroland plaque:
When did you get the plaque that you are talking about? The quality of those plaques greatly vary depending on when you got them. I heard that the ones from the 70's and earlier look like actual miniature swords using real steel. Even then, those are, at best, good guides for the silhouette of the swords, but will tell you very little about the specific geometry of the swords.

I have seen the more recent versions of this wall decor, and they are merely strips of tin cut to vaguely resemble the swords they were supposed to represent. Some of the swords were even outright mislabeled.

On the site on "spartan" stuff:
I have some serious doubts as to the authenticity of the weapons featured in the site. Authenticity in the sense of being faithful reproductions of the actual weapons. For one thing, one of the swords were marked "Alexander the Great Slashing Sword as seen in the movie "Alexander"". Not exactly the work of a serious reproducer as it was tossed in with supposedly historically based weapons. (to their credit, at least they did mention that it was a movie prop reproduction, not like some other sites)


On the comparison of the two things:
So essentially you were comparing house decorations with modern approximations of what ancients swords *might* have been. Not anything to base any conclusions on

On the migration of technology:
Yes, the Macedonians did reach the Indian sub continent. But what did they find there? Armies using iron weapons! Why does everything have to be a straight line from the ancient Egyptians to every other culture? It's like the old everything-came-from-shaolin; an OK rule of thumb for a majority of things, but quite useless in others.

I'm no expert on Chinese history but I'm pretty sure they don't trace back the bronze-iron change in Chinese history to the Hittites.

When I have time I'll post something more constructive.

 

Yes it is revealing. I know an instructor who goes barefoot on any terrain and his feet are similar, not Philippino either.

Funny

 

Having live in Thailand for some time I noticed that Thai's from the countryside have very wide feet. Of course they do... they rarely wear shoes. Mostly barefoot of flip flop. Their pinky toe often hangs completely off the edge of the flip flop.. lol. I think it contributes quite a bit to balance in the ring during fights. Since for many of them it's in a sense their natural state.

Being raised primarily in the west there is an age when going barefoot is no longer considered all that acceptable. I think the body has no choice but react to that. I think more people should be barefoot more of the time.

Who knows it could lend itself to a healther society.

 

Raymond,
You are looking at it all wrong, the display is of a vintage of who knows, that is not the reason for the post.
The reason for the thread is the similarity, and the reason for comparison is the time and the place, but one is 1000 years earlier.

Now look at the thread of Kali and all the problems with communication regarding that topic. One of the reasons is the lack of support for historical reasons. No hard evidence for comparison.

But the board is a portrait of the past and it does not mean it has to be in steel, it is valuable portrait of what was there (before the spanish or was it after)...

Your post is an expression of your own thoughts placed into this thread and I am looking forward to your next post for what I am looking for is information and not arguement. :bang:

Construtive is the name of the tune I'd like Information that can back up what has not been found by those who like to dig

As far as iron vs steel it is different and the name of it is quite revealing.

Now another reason for the thread is for you and others to come up with evidence..That is all I am looking for.

The Islands got it from the mainlands around it, by way of China, India or Persia, or maybe the Celts were there long ago???

I am hoping for this to be a good discussion for the types of Swords that have come from the Islands are unique and very effective..

Are they an evolution of the simple ones of China or the ones that came from Persia or where???

Regards

 

Your last remark is what I truly believe about barefoot. I am that way most of the time and if I am in shoes they are a leather slipper for flexability.

I have lost some of my mobility in my left leg and foot because of nerve damage. So I have always since then worn flexable things or nothing on my feet (not flexable makes me walk very gimpy) because of the loss of the muscle in my calf area.

I have construction boots and when I have to wear them I limp

But at other times it is hard to see the fact that I have a slight limp. Muscle memory is a term (not correct) but it is a two way street, they have found the brain and body adapt and it does not happen if the foot and toes are not able to move.

The saying about if you don't use it you lose it, is true I have found

Boots and shoes are like a cast on the foot and many of the shoes are just wrong for your feet and muscles that move your legs and feet. IMHO...

 

raymond is right. the older moroland plaques are actually pretty close to how the weapons suppose to look like, while the later one, the ones that are made out of tin, are vaguely similar to the original weapon. it is a sad state when there are so-called FMA instructors that go as far as reproducing these venerable weapons, adding their own flavor, and selling it claiming this is how they're suppose to look like.
the designs of the real ones were by no means accident, rather it was designed with a purpose in mind. BGile, you still think they're crude?

here they are, the weapons of the philippines:

Mindanao

Mindanao

Mindanao

Southern Visayas/Mindanao

Mindanao/Northern Luzon

 

more...

Mindanao

Visayas/Luzon

Luzon

Northern Luzon



in regards to the origin of these weapons:
some evolve from their indonesian counterparts, while the others was due to necessity, as they see fit, in a certain situation. sorry, no celt/persian inspiration.

 

Awesome pictures. I just had to save all of it in my hard drive when I saw it!

Where did you get the pictures from? Personal collection?

 

Spunjer,
Yes, I am going to do it also and this is what I was hoping for...Thanks for your time and effort.

The mentioning of crude and doing a job of haking the vines and making a garden (same tool) has been mentioned by others. I feel the items you have shown are great.

But lets remember this is what date and time? That is all I was trying to show about the Spartans and the Persians is the time frame, 1000 years earlier.

The Indians had some great weapons and the time frame again is later. Same with the mentality of the Chinese and Europe they had a two way street of information after 1300's. But did they have it before?

Again thanks for the great posting. Made my day

 

bgile, my bad.

but please realize that whatever sword the spartans/persian had in the movie are, at its best, a guesswork. if there are any swords from that era that have survived in the modern days, i have to say it has to be unrecognizable, given the standards that western collector will leave it as it is. i would also assume that whatever that is made out of wood, or material from that sword has disintegrated eons ago. the best they can do is replicate whatever they can find in old artifact, i.e. paintings and such. and with that in mind, i doubt if they can copy the details. as for the movie, i would assume that it would be the least of their worry, replicating the exact type of swords those warriors carried. they might have the basic shape, but all the trimmings has to be guesswork.

as for those filo blades above, their ages ranges from 300 to 100 years old.

 

nice pics spunjer