Discussion in 'Women's Self Defence' started by Reiki, Apr 17, 2004.
I can't open the video. I didn't realize how old this thread was either.
How can i see this video I teach females self defence this would be useful I feel?#
Here is another site with the video:
The perpetrator has now been busted, could not find any info on his sentence though. However, he is a drug addict and has been in jail on several previous occasions. Also the police are investigating possible links to several tens of other similar attacks. Apparently this guy was committing the crimes to fuel his drug habit, mostly attacking women and young girls, stealing mobiles, jewelry and cash. One 15 year old victim is still on a ventilator/intensive care, (reanimation - direct translation). This is from an article dated 23/03/2004.
I would love to spend sometime with that guy..
I was in a fight once where we were heavily outnumbered, one friend got knocked down and one of our opponents kicked him in the head a few times, then jumped on his head with both feet 3-4 times. My friend was out cold and snoring, but he did not suffer anything too serious, just a broken nose, he did however have a fractured vertebrate from getting hit in the back I guess. So, I would think that those kicks that scum gave that woman would not have done too much internal damage, but would have probably cut her up quite badly, then again I'm just speculating.
After watching this clip, I think the girl had no chance. It is true that she gave her back to the guy, but she was busy pressing the elevator buttons. It could have happened to anyone. Probably even it was a guy, he would have had little chance. Do not forget, that 'surprising' is the worst thing.
The attack was fast and vicsious ....
I think yer spot on. man that was nauseating to watch.
this worked thanks!
I don't see how it would be useful except for pure shock value. Odds are you'd scare off a few of the students who needed it most. And what would the others learn? That there are bad people out there? That if a violent criminal takes you from behind, by surprise you're going to have a bad day?
I just don't see the point here.
You are teaching people and in this case women how to defend against an attack. You must show them what will happen if they are attacked. This is the value of the video. You might not be able to run, call for help or even know your being attacked until your in the midst of it. This video is perfect. This video shows the importance of situational awareness. Very important driven home by the very shock value of it.
The problem is that it reinforces precisely the wrong things.
1) It's a sudden attack, no warning, no interview. This happens, no doubt about it, but it's very uncommon. You're teaching them to focus on the things they are least likely to experience
2) It sends a message of total helplessness. The students will model their thoughts on what they are taught. This clip shows a scenario where the victim couldn't realistically do anything and gets killed, doesn't even go down fighting. That's what you are teaching them. Wrong response. Wrong orientation. Wrong result. Just wrong.
3) The very best that can happen is that you will make your students second guess the victim and blame her. Not come up with realistic things that might have helped, but blame her for getting being in a situation where the very best would have probably been helpless. The result of this sort of thing tends to be drawing away - that would never happen to me.
4) After about 15 years of teaching women's self defense I've gotten a pretty good idea of what to expect from students. There might be a few who would respond positively to this. The vast majority would react negatively. You'd probably lose a good quarter of the class including the ones who need it most. A few would be seriously traumatized.
5) This isn't high school driver's education. The grotesque splatter films they show there are to keep hormone-crazed teenagers who think they're immortal and have no skills from driving recklessly. That is exactly the opposite of where most self defense students are. They need to be, as it were, brought up to highway speeds. Terrifying them and sending messages of hopelessness is precisely the wrong thing to do. Odds are you'll just make them gunshy.
"1) It's a sudden attack, no warning, no interview. This happens, no doubt about it, but it's very uncommon. You're teaching them to focus on the things they are least likely to experience"
I don't agree with this. They are common enough in NYC for women to get attacked by surprise, by people they don't know in confined spaces. Prepare for it.
2) It sends a message of total helplessness. The students will model their thoughts on what they are taught. This clip shows a scenario where the victim couldn't realistically do anything and gets killed, doesn't even go down fighting. That's what you are teaching them. Wrong response. Wrong orientation. Wrong result. Just wrong."
The point of the class is to prepare for real situations. The clip shows a real situation. As I mentioned, this situation happens regularly enough to warrent prepartion. This woman was not aware of her situation. What better way to show you need of situational awareness than this clip? It will not bring a feeling of helplessness. If your taking the class you admit you already feel helpless in these situations. Preparation and prevention help to avoid situations like the one in the clip.
"3) The very best that can happen is that you will make your students second guess the victim and blame her. Not come up with realistic things that might have helped, but blame her for getting being in a situation where the very best would have probably been helpless. The result of this sort of thing tends to be drawing away - that would never happen to me."
I don't understand this blaming "her" aspect. Your training for self defense. The concept is the trainee will do something to prevent an attack or defend themselves. Hence the focus on the woman in the clip. It is not her fault she got attacked but we are looking to learn how to react to that situation ourselves if we found ourselves in it.
" 4) After about 15 years of teaching women's self defense I've gotten a pretty good idea of what to expect from students. There might be a few who would respond positively to this. The vast majority would react negatively. You'd probably lose a good quarter of the class including the ones who need it most. A few would be seriously traumatized."
If they are traumatized watching it, imagine what would happen if it actually happend to them.
I have never taught a women's self defense class. The self defense classes I have been involved with are mostly men. Certainly you want to prepare as many women as possible for it. So if your experience is that a clip of this magnitutde would scare them away, than don't show it. Better to prepare them with something than nothing
"5) This isn't high school driver's education. The grotesque splatter films they show there are to keep hormone-crazed teenagers who think they're immortal and have no skills from driving recklessly. That is exactly the opposite of where most self defense students are. They need to be, as it were, brought up to highway speeds. Terrifying them and sending messages of hopelessness is precisely the wrong thing to do. Odds are you'll just make them gunshy."
Showing these clips in my opinion are important to prepare for self defense. As I have said, the clip in question is similiar to various situations that happen in NYC. In a seld defense class I would rather prepare for real situations as oppossed to hypothetical situations.
check table 69 for crime stats and 71 for self defense stats
Its probably a guy thing that I don't understand women's reaction to it. I look at the clip and wonder how can I prevent myself from being in this situation? I don't see analizing the woman's reaction to it or lack of one as blaming her for anything.You aren't either but the woman who might think that as you refer to them. The attacker probably picked her because she was a woman but he easily could have done this to a man.
You don't have to agree with it, just accept the fact. Almost all rapes and the majority of robberies are preceeded by at least a minute of conversation and increasing control. Simple facts, well established through years of research. NYC isn't special that way.
The point is to spend precious training time maximizing your chances. You can't prepare for an asteroid hitting you out of the blue. This is very much like that. The message you are sending by showing this clip, particularly in isolation, is that that is what is going to happen to you. What you show is what they will remember, and it is how they will see the world. This is one where she just could not have stopped him. That's what you're telling them will happen. It's also an unlikely situation. Extremely unlikely. If you only have twenty hours for the love of G-d spend it on dealing with the dangerous situations they have some real chance of encountering.
There are plenty of better ways of showing situational awareness. Take AWSDA's rape prevention instructor course and use their video. Try Mark MacYoung's "Safe in the City" for something not quite as good but easier to get ahold of. In other words, show them something that involves situational awareness.
The fundamental disconnect in your thinking here involves success and failure. You want to show them failure. They will identify with what you show them and pattern themselves on that. In other words, you will train them to fail. Show them success and they will model themselves on success. The patterning follows the strongest emotional impact. By making this part of your training you have guaranteed that their strongest emotional reaction will be identified with failure and defeat.
Take a look at what almost everyone here did. They immediately began second guessing the victim, and a variety of things were put forward along the lines of "If she'd only done this it wouldn't have happened". It's a very short step from that to "It's her fault it happened". This is particularly the case when we are dealing with people who are coming in not sure of themselves, unused to exercising physical power and not well acquainted with fighting and winning.
In rape trials, so a large number of old police officers and prosecutors have told me, a jury of women is much more likely to acquit. There is a dynamic (which defense attorneys cultivate) that says "She did something wrong. I wouldn't do that, so it couldn't happen to me." By putting the blame on the victim the observer pushes the unpleasant possibility away. It's not a great reaction, but it's very, very human. The best jury, from the prosecutor's point of view, is one which contains men with daughters.
You can get a class of women to some amazing places. But you have to get them there on terms they can accept. Odds are, most of the class hasn't been in a fight since childhood. About 1/4, maybe 1/3 have been victims of a completed assault. By starting them off with something at the edge of, but inside, their comfort zone you move the zone. Done by progressive stages it can be very successful. Done too far, too fast, using the wrong images and semiotics you can hurt them more than you can help them.
Once again, it's a rare situation, NYC being no exception. This from the NYPD's most decorated officer, founder of ASLET, etc. etc. etc. Most attacks are not like lightning from a clear sky. It's also the sort of attack against which there is little or no defense. It can do more pedagogical harm than good to the students. It prepares them for the unlikely and leaves them more poorly defended against the likely. It wastes scarce class time. And there are better things out there that teach better emotional habits more effectively.
In short, it's just not worth it.
I'm going to be out of town until Tuesday, so I won't be able to respond for a while.
You look at video at this so that you will be able to fight against this or avoid it all together. Not to show that the situation is helpless.
The US Dept. of Justice crime stats for 2003 has 191,350 reported rapes and 552,830 reported robberies. There 300 million people in the last census. I don't really know how this poll defines robbery. Bear that in mind but from other bits of information I believe it relates to self defense as that where 2 of the 3 tables talk about. Robberies occur by more than double. A minority of the robberies occur by surprise. So define how rare it is. What's a minority? It would seem that enough robberies occur by surprise to be worth studying. Of course many rapes and robberies go unreported for 1 reason or another.
I dont view studying the clip as hopeless. It is something that can be fought against or avoided. It is NOT the victim's fault for not being able to anything. THERE IS NOTHING SHE COULD HAVE DONE! "Second guessing" her reaction is not blaming her. But saying the woman should have done this or that is delusional. You should not say that until you yourself have lived through such a situation. Studying her response and the one I would like to have if a similiar situation occurs is not blaming her.
Edit: If 20% of robberies were by surprise it would equal 110,556 surprise robberies. There 191,350 rapes. Not worth teaching though.
this is a fact, it happened. if it happened once it could happen again, possibly to one of your students. how would you feel if you didn't inform your students prior to the incident, especially if it was at their funeral when you see them again. you can look at the clip and say "that's horrific, that woman shouldn't have done this or that, it will reinforce bad things in their training like hopelessness, or despair" these are all true if the student gets no input from the instructor. a woman who has been raped, statistically, will have a higher chance of being raped again because of the attack they went through and the victim mentality that has brought to them. having gone through that the woman has a chance to become stronger but it takes a strong fortitude and a lot of support.
the video clip should be used as a tool.
it should be disected and watched, maybe not in its entirety, but enough to show what not to do and or what to do. aspects not touched much in martial arts like awareness, close contact, split second switching, warning signs of any kind, and or whatever else you can think of to never let someone you teach, know, and or love fall prey to a piece of shyt like this guy.
no one can predict every situation that can occur, but where else can you find something so explosive to get that point across, unless it was real.
please don't think i am heartless or inconsiderate, i really feel bad for the woman and wish it didn't happen, but it did. it really shows how fast something can happen with or without words or a precursor to the violence.
I've just started to read this thread and I have to agree with your words, not enough MA clubs do any form of ground fighting for women. I know it seems a bit harsh but when your in a position where someone has got you on the ground, how would you actually fight back in the safest way.
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