Walkden-Shiyun controversy

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Mitlov, May 26, 2019.

  1. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    That's literally why pushing your opponent to make space was recently added to the rules as permissible...to let people fight out of the clinch. Some people, most notably but not only Walden, are now using pushing offensively. Aaron Cook does it twice in this video from the same world championships. But then Cook does it again in round two and this time he gets the penalty, not the opponent he pushed out.

    Speaking of that video, it's an exciting (if not close) match. It's a nice counterpoint for those people (not you personally, but some here) saying Olympic TKD is fundamentally broken, constant stoppages, nothing but front leg roundhouse kicks, etc. Whether or not some people here personally like it, it's the most popular martial sport in the world based on participation numbers, and that's not a situation where it makes sense to throw out the whole rulebook, declare it a failure, and restart from scratch as some are suggesting.
    Mitch likes this.
  2. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I wonder if that was because he only pushed? There was no attempt at a follow up kick?
    Mitlov likes this.
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Which is unfortunate... I remember training and using a lot of in close punches to the body when the opponent got close (or a slide or switch step to make room followed up with a kick) to make the opponent respect the close game. We didn't get 'points' for the close in punches, but you could deliver enough pain to encourage them to stay away.
    Mitch likes this.
  4. Monkey_Magic

    Monkey_Magic Well-Known Member

    In modern ITF competitions, at least in the UK, I’ve seen hooks and uppercuts disallowed. Only straight punches (jab/cross) and jumping punches were permitted.

    Also, the ITF seems to have a rule where you have to throw at least one kick for every four punches. Competitors who throw five successive punches get penalised. Why have such an odd rule?

    Also, why does a jumping punch score extra points? This results in crazy jumping about to land a punch whilst mid-air.
  5. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I like Cook's style, even his front leg jabbing side kicks are properly knocking the opponent back. He's old school in some ways, from my limited knowledge of the sport. Thanks for that vud Mitlov, interesting to watch.
  6. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    On the other hand, epee must be one of the easiest rulesets in all combat sports - stab the other person first and you get the point. Stab at the same time and you both get a point. Obviously there are some intricacies to that, but it's a pretty easy system to start watching.
    Botta Dritta likes this.
  7. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    In my association we still follow a simple 1pt any punch, 2pt body kick 3pt head kick. The only incentive to throw flashy kicks or jumping techniques is if they work for you. I have to say that although it has it's own problems, I prefer it.
  8. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    The fact that the rules are simple don't translate into being the easiest to watch. I fenced epee for about six years and even I hate watching it. I'd say a good foil bout is the most fun to watch of the three weapons, even if the spectator didn't get all the intricacies of right of way.
    Botta Dritta likes this.
  9. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    He may be old school but he's not obsolete. He nearly took the podium under the current rules. In fact, in the bronze medal bout, he could have had his opponent disqualified for an inadvertent but hard face punch that laid him out flat. That would have been a Walkden-esque move as the match was nearly over and he was down on points. He chose to shake it off and keep fighting and lose on the merits instead of win on that sort of technicality.

    That's the sort of sportsmanship I like to see embodied in martial arts competition. I don't want my kids to internalize "a win is a win". I want them to internalize courage, self-confidence, tenacity, and a willingness to put it all out and nevertheless fail with respect and dignity.

    Post-fight interview: Aaron Cook: "This has been my last world championships" - WTM
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  10. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Definitely not obsolete!

    I didn't watch the whole vid, but that reverse turning kick at around 5 minutes!

    Everyone should watch that as an example of a spinning kick with no telegraph from the foot movement. Or not that I can see on my phone anyway. Glorious!

    Does his opponent pose for a photo whilst Aaron is on the ground?!
    Mushroom and Mitlov like this.
  11. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Yeah, no one throws spinning hook kicks quite like a good TKDer.

    Now that you mention it...yes. Distasteful in any context, since the match isn't over yet, but particularly when the opponent is down from an illegal technique.
  12. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    That's exactly the scoring system my association uses too. When there are spinning techniques, and there are, they're for tactical reasons, not just as a score multiplier.

    Not that TKD scoring is inherently wrong, just I personally prefer the system you describe.
    Mitch likes this.
  13. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    100% agree - it's very fast and pretty boring to watch wrist hit after wrist hit over and over again.
  14. Botta Dritta

    Botta Dritta Valued Member

    I think it depends on the level played. A study done by some Italian sport scientists showed that at Olympic level about 70% of the hits go to the body usually after the initial feint to the forward target (and/arm/leg). That beings said I've seen some mind numbing risk averse pool fights in my time, particular when the fencer doesn't want to lose indicator points. Of course in because of gaming the rules in team matches the non-combativeness penalty rules have had to be brought in. Check this out for playing the rules and not the spirit of the sport. The Olympic observers were in that particular tournament and the FIE raged so much the had no choice but to change the rules.

    axelb likes this.
  15. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    I'm amazed there weren't already passivity rules in the system. That was so boring to watch - both players must have known they weren't actually fencing at that point!
    Botta Dritta likes this.
  16. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    In all fairness, I never saw tactics like that once at any local, state, or national epee competition. Sure, epee is more of a defensive sport than foil or saber and thus less active than either, but nothing like that typically.

    That sort of exploitation of the rules in disregard of all principles of sportsmanship is something I suspect only happens at the highest level of competition most of the time, and even then only rarely. (And I think that's true in any sport, not just epee and not just taekwondo).
    Botta Dritta likes this.
  17. axelb

    axelb Master of Office Chair Fu

    Wow I can't believe I just watched all of that! It was like one of those GIFS with someone climbing a tower "you'll never guess what happens at the top" :D
    Botta Dritta likes this.
  18. Botta Dritta

    Botta Dritta Valued Member

    It started to creep into team matches in all three disciplines but more particularly epee in international satellite comps. In this instance the Hungarians were ahead on points and no incentive to attack, knowing the Estonian had a good parry riposte and the Estonian knowing the Hungarians were a markedly superior stop hitters preferred to to time out and move to the next match where his team mate would have had a better chance to get points back . In the context of a team match it was tactically sound decision by both sides. In the context of the greater sport it was a clown act.

    I think at international comps once you meet the same competitors often on the circuit you start to formulate tactics that push the rules to the limit against particular opponents. I would be interesting to know if Zheng Shiyun already had a background of being easily pushed out of the ring.
    Mitlov likes this.
  19. Monkey_Magic

    Monkey_Magic Well-Known Member

    That would certainly be interesting to know.

    The next face off between Bianca Walkden and Zheng Shuyin could well be the Olympics. So the women’s heavyweight Taekwon-Do will be one to watch in Tokyo 2020.
  20. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    I wouldn't be at all surprised if WT continues down its current path that the sport gets removed from the Olympics. It is quickly becoming unwatchable.

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