Value/Effectiveness of the SIDE KICK in 2007 compared to Bruce Lee's day?

THE THAI ELBOW - I heard that the elbow going down to top of the skull is banned in Thai boxing? As in you jump up on there legs like Traditional art elbow down directly to top of skull, or without jumping on legs the same. If that technique is not banned , surely the deaths in Muay Thai would be statistically a bit higher? You jump come down on head with an elbow, not hard to crack a skull like an egg , bone against bone, or cause serious brain damage; your whole bodyweight is going into it and the speed of actual strike is adding to the power. Not easiest Thai technique to do in the ring, but still possible such as dazing opponent with strikes or knocking him back then doing it, etc.

Tap the top of your headright in the centre, imagine a full force downward elbow right there! Would you feel comfortable going into fight with that technique allowed? If tough & well conditioned you can take most other strikes - punches , kicks to body/legs/head, knees, diff. elbows, but bone against bone to top of skull is a different matter.

Recall hearing it was banned that particular elbow from people , don't have surces to cite, if I'm wrong no probs. But if it is still legal technique why is nobody doing it now? Post a videolink to clip of someone doing it in say past 5 years?

 

Jeezuz H. Christ...
Don't expect everyone to do your homework. Watch some of the Lumpini bouts or the bouts that take place in Rajudumnern and you will see that elbow strike. You're the one that's come in with misinformation and misconception about the rules in Muay Thai... therefore it's incumbent on you to track down the vids once someones set you in the right direction.

Nak muays are and have been doing it. It's a legal technique and part of the MT arsenal. It's also a legal techinque in other similar styles such as Burmese Boxing (Letchwei) and Khmer Boxing.

Furthermore... you really need to read up on human anatomy and physiology... the human skull doesn't somehow instantly shatter into little bits the minute someone is hit on the top of the head with an elbow strike. It's a skull not a quails egg!!!

Concussion? Yes. (sometimes but not always)
Lots of blood? Yes. (usually)
TKO/cut stoppage? Yes. (usually)
KO... Yes. (sometimes but not always)

All of those and more are out there for you to find on YouTube and many other video sites. K-1 Fans forum has tons of vids... spend enough time watching Muay Thai and you'll understand the reality of it.

 

Watch the first couple seconds of this trailer... this is from the I-1 series here in Hong Kong. There's an elbow that the Thai (not Santichai I don't think) lands on the top of his opponents head (the crown area)... it KO's him... but doesn't kill him.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngAt91u4ono"]YouTube[/ame]

There are a few in here... this is also the I-1 - the smaller Thai fighter is also based out of Hong Kong - Pibool Khunkaew. Brilliant fighter... note his head does not explode and he does not die from any elbows thrown at the top of his head.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAL-ZvTMhrM"]Bryan "Stormy Kid" To vs Pibool Khunkaew I (Rounds 3 - 5) - YouTube[/ame]

Here goes an example of a downwards elbow strike... the guy barely blinks on the first one. Note his skull doesn't shatter into bits and he doesn't die.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40w-ljyE_qo"]The Muay Thai Elbow!! - YouTube[/ame]

at the end of the following clip Petchaik Siriwat demonstrates the chopping elbow - aimed primarily at the clavicle and the shoulder... but often ends up on the head of the opponent.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMrzplkaSLY&mode=related&search="]YouTube[/ame]

and while it doesn't have any downward elbow strikes it has plenty of elbowy-goodness for you...
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vVH1Rmpv3g&mode=related&search="]elbows KOs - YouTube[/ame]

and to summarize once and for all that peoples heads DON'T explode when hit by an elbow... here's the legendary 2nd round between Sakmongkol vs Jongsanan in their 5th fight!!! You will note that even through that insane flurry of elbows that land repeatedly from both sides... that there are no exploding or shatter skulls.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhwHe4W6K2Q"]5th Sakmongkol vs Jongsanan fight - 2nd round - YouTube[/ame]

 

As far as MMA goes, it isn't used as much because the fighters tend to stay in close, punch-range. This shuts down long range kicks such as the side kick. It opens up the ability to toss a round kick to the knees or thighs, or to sweep. When fighters aren't standing toe to toe, during that phase where they're relaxed, the hands aren't so tight, maybe they just broke, the sidekick and high round kicks become more effective.

As far as point sparring goes, it's the most crucial kick. No contest.

As far as real situations go, it's a slow technique. Most people would prefer a front snap kick to the groin, a punch, or even an elbow strike instead of a sidekick. The sidekick has huge potential for power, but will always be slower than these other techniques, and in self defense you HAVE to hit first. If you don't hit first, you might not get to hit at all.

 

There are two ways of doing the sidekick - the power way, which involves steping through, and the snappy way, which involves a simple shift in footwork. Strictly speaking, the JKD sidekick is more about speed than power. In JFJKD, we tend to use the sidekick more as a leg obstruction that an attacking technique, as well as various other kicks to achieve this goal (the most prominent being an adaption of the Wing Chun oblique kick). But, we do also use the sidekick for power, and let me tell you, it is effective if it is timed right. As well as having the capabilities of stealing a step, it breaks the distance barrier between you and your opponent. Also, if correctly exectued, is a potentially fight stopping technique. Also, as a competative nak Muay, let me tell you, it can be devastating.

Em

 

First of all, in regards to Slip, thank you for the Dekkers correction. I meant Rob Kaman. Second, to "kickingit": Slip is dead on about the hype and spin doctoring the WKA did towards Benny's and Don's fights in Thailand. I bought into it for years until I was able to see the fights themselves on Youtube.

As far as some of your critique of other fighters are concerned, I think many of them are off base. Joe Lewis in his full contact prime (pre-PKA circa 1970-ish) was knocking his opponents out of the ring (over the ropes with his side kick and never had an opponent make it past the second round. BTW, even though I don't personally like Joe much, his "greatest fighter" hype is not self promotion. It was started by Bruce Lee, it was continued by a poll in BLACK BELT MAGAZINE of top fighters who their pick of the greatest was, and was recently continued in an interview by Chuck Norris.

Also, Bill Wallace had several KO's and I can tell you from personal experience that his side kick hits hard (at least as hard as Wilson's) from both doing an exibition fight against him about 25 years ago and sparring/playing around with him about 5-6 years later. And I outweigh him by at leat 80 lbs of muscle and have been hit by some of the best heavyweights, yet Bill has my respect.

 

Good post there Kwan Jang. I gotta say... I wouldn't want to be kicked by any of the fighters listed here. They were all phenomenal in their day. Which is why the whole thing of 'So and so from yesteryear would beat so and so from today' is such a slippery slope. Though I'm guilty of comparing everyone to the famous black boxer from the turn of the century... Jack Johnson.

A great documentary that is pretty much on the topic of talented kickboxers and fighters from the era of the '70s is the 'Fighting Black Kings' documentary. I couldn't recommend it more for those interested in the fight history for kickboxing and karate of that era in America. Everyone needs to watch that at least once in their life.

 

Kwan Jang,

Wallace may hit really hard with the Side kick, in the fights I saw of him , I never once saw him do any damage with it or KO anyone , don't recall seeing him ever really moving anyone with a body kick either.

Joe Lewis , his full contact fight record is around 16- 8 Losses, not a great record which is why he doesn't go around publically stating it as say Bill Wallace, Don Wilson, Benny Urquidez do theirs. It's important to note regarding his 'The Greatest' claim that along with his weak record, to consider the competition he fought at the time - it was nowhere near as strong as that say Don Wilson fought - Alexio, Jean Yves, etc. So with not great fight record, and not that strong competition , his claim to be 'The Greatest' is entirely bogus.

Compare with Don Wilson's record , 69 WINS, & 11 World Titles! Benny The Jet 58 WINS, 49 KO's. And Lewis calls himself 'The Greatest'? Try look for Joe Lewis's full record, hard to find anywhere he doesn't have it on his website nor is it mentioned in bio's I looked at, if his record backed up his 'Greatest' statement you think it would be easy to find.

Even in exhibition matches , Joe Lewis never looked anything special against Bill Wallace, etc and he even fought Leon Spinks (he did only boxing against Lewis's kickboxing) and still looked nothing much at all. After every fight were opponents looked far better than him, Joe's ego could never take it, so he always had his version of the fight , how he won it and used his supreme strategy!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-bjRT3NQUI"]Bill Superfoot Wallace vs Joe Lewis part 1 of 3 - YouTube[/ame]

Joe Lewis vs Bill Wallace , this is in 3 parts 1st part is link above.


Joe Lewis was good and tough, but his 'Greatest' claim is without any real foundation. Even his point record , Mike Stone & Chuck Norris in that era had far better records, and Chuck Norris was by far the more versatile fighter, compared to Joe Lewis's few techniques like side kick and backfist.

 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcewWVOswpg"]Benny The Yet loses to a muay thai fighter - YouTube[/ame]

Not full fight but this is meant to be one of Benny's losses where he was soundly defeated by a Thai boxer, it doesn't look it. Benny is giving as good as he got and is obviously better with the hands forcing him back sometimes, the THai is better in clinch with knees but Benny blocks some & takes the others, they never do any real damage & he is not dropped by them. Clips of Bennys other fights with Thais , only ever seen very short clips.

Anyone know of links to Don 'The Dragon' Wilsons fights with Thais? Would be interested in seeing them, and especially with this thread - to see how they cope with his side kick.

 

http://www.donthedragonwilson.com/bio5.htm

Don Wilson's record, compare it to Joe Lwis's if you can ever find his.

The loss to Samart was by decision it went the distance, but you hear different things pro Thai boxing people or sites say that Samart Prasamit wiped the floor with him, other more impartial observers either say it was very even, or Wilson just edged it - but as a decision in that country against one of their fighters no way he would win it.

Any links to the fight is it up anywhere on the net? Would love to see it.

 

Well, thanks for the vids, but I'm starting to wonder why you didn't title this thread, "Why I love Don Wilson and why Matt Hughes, Joe Lewis, Bill Wallace, and Muay Thai matches suck".

The fact is (to try to bring this back on topic) that even when a practitoner is skilled at side kicks, round kicks tend to be more prevalent. And punches show up even more.

It's got it's place with guys who are good at kicking, but it has several weaknesses: it comes close to exposing your back; it's harder to learn and execute than front or round kicks; it's rarely a KO shot; the angle it's delivered on is just begging for a single-leg takedown.

The pros? It's a decent stop-kick (a task also accomplished by the front kick, which allows you to still face your opponent), and when delivered correctly, which we've agreed is almost never, it can be one hell of a body shot (which usually doesn't come into play in most full-contact fights).

 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1Nse1gZY9w&mode=related&search="]YouTube[/ame]

GOOD CLIP TO SEE THE POWER SIDE KICK , ESPECIALLY ON HEAVY BAG.


Callsignfuzzy, 'why I love Don' - lol. He has great side kick , & that is the subject of this thread. NOBODY in the UFC or K1 has a great side kick that I have seen, not one and that's out of a hell of a lot of fighters. Bas Rutten was right (in recent 'Black Belt' articles when asked on the effectiveness of Side King in the ring & street) - few people can throw it really well, he mentions Don Wilson as being one that can.

So talk of it today being effective especially in the most popular circuits like UFC & K1, you have to consider that the vast majority cannot throw it well and therefore you rarely if ever see it used. Just because they don't throw it well & you rarely see it , doesn't necessitate it is not an effective technique. A lot of MMA fighters & K1 guys will seldom practice the side kick either, another reason they're not good at it. Again when they are almost all fighting frontal rather than side on, they rely on other tools the side kick is harder to throw from frontal stance, even if they could throw it well.

In terms of the street, people stupidly look at MMA like UFC and think if it doesn't work in there or is rarely used , it cannot be a street effective technique - which is very dumb but many believe it to be true. MMA is not real fighting, not even close, if it was the sport would have evolved very differently indeed - guys going to ground getting noses bitten off/ eyes gouged/ ears ripped/ fish hooked, etc - would have meant they would have worked on their standup a lot more and likely moved away from or adapted the Muay 'please I'm begging you dump me on the ground' Thai style.

 

*shrug* Looks like how I practice my side kick. I notice, though, both in Don's footage and in the Wallace fight, that after throwing the side kick the guys tend to spin around, exposing their back. Wilson even does it in the heavy-bag footage. Weren't you the guy who was critical of the Thai-style round kick because of the supposed spin? Interesting point: the spin only comes into play with the round kick if you miss, while the FC fighterss were spinning after they'd made contact. Ya know, when their opponent was still close enough to hit them.

Fair enough, I can say for pretty certain in the UFC, though I haven't watched too many K-1 matches. But is your argument that it's a good kick because nobody uses it? That doesn't make sense. At any rate, most of those guys get their training from Muay Thai, which de-emphasizes the side kick. So it's not a major part of their arsenal anyways.

As I stated in my last post, I think it's got some bennifits. It's just that the risks far outweigh them. And to be honest, if it was that great a technique, I don't see why kickboxers and MMA fighters wouldn't use it. If you wanna see it in use, look up San Shou or San Da.

MMA is not real fighting, but the only example you can hold up of effective side-kicking comes from an even more restrictive environment?

And what's with this idea that every "fight" has to have gouging, biting, etc? No fight I've ever witnessed has had it, no fight I've been in, or my friends have been in, has had it. Usually it involves punching, clinching, tackles, and occationally knees. I get bitten and poked in the eye more in training than I ever have in a real fight.

And interesting bit about the front-on Thai-style stance... for starters, it HAS been modified somewhat for the sport of MMA. In addition, standing front on allows for a better sprawl. That's the thing we do for basic takedown defense. It's actually really good for it. The sideways stance... not so much.

 

lol.... cliche much?

 

Anyone have links to Don The Dragon Wilson's fight with Thais like Samart on video? It's not on Youtube as far as I could see. Would be interesting to see how the Thai's coped with his side kick and side on stance.

People make a big deal on Benny The Jet or Don The Dragon Wilson getting beaten by Thai boxers, as if Thai boxing is so superior as an art, the reality it's not a big deal nor a superior art it alll depends on the person.

Both Benny & Don fought under Thai rules , at the Thais own game, this would be akin to the Gracies fighting at the Olympics or World Championships in Judo they would have little chance. Both Benny & Don did incredibly well considering that, and Don's fight went the distance & some say he won it but could never win n pints against a Thai in their homeland unless a KO.

Vice versa how many Thais fought under American Kickboixing rules kicks above the belt, no knees or elbows and beat all comers? Never heard of any to my knowedge. If Thais could not beat Kickboxers ast their own game, then Kickboxers not soundly beating Thai boxers doesn't mean so much. It's more propaganda you see on pro Thai boxing sites to say Thai boxing is so great.

Did any Thais in Benny or Don's era even try coming to the U.S. to fight Kickboxers at their own game, kicks above the belt , etc ; lot more money for them than in Thai boxing at the time & probably still the case? The pro Thai sites go on about Kickboxers being defeated by Thai boxers, incl. ones like Don brave enough to go to Thailand and fight them at their own game, yet you hear no mention of Thai boxers going to the US and fighting at Kickboxing and beating the best, why is that?

Regarding side kick in Thai boxing or K1, forgetting the frontal stance for a moment, I don't know why they don't practice it more & use it or the soinning back kick. People can take Thai kicks all night long if they are tough, you see many matches go the distance with them battering each other with rear hook kicks all night long, but if they used a spinning back kick or side kick and connected hard it would end the fight, sure harder to land but a good spinning back kick to ribs can knock the wind right out of you or break ribs, someone that can exectute it really well and hard could put people away earlier - rather than fight a war of attrition or who's the tougher for the 12 rounds.

VOTE - DON 'THE DRAGON' WILSON FOR U.S. PRESIDENT IN THE NEXT ELECTIONS (After President Bush steps down) - just kidding of course!

 

I thought we'd covered this before, but here it is again: it exposes your back. Also the side-facing or spinning surface makes it harder to defend takedowns.

If what I'm tellin' ya ain't good enough, here's some of the pundits:

"While performing [the side kick], the boxer's body faces the opponent sideways, and in case his attack has been blocked or missed, the boxer is not able to continue with punching techniqes." - Thai Boxing Dynamite , Zoran Rebac, 1987

"The side kick is hard to land on a moving opponent, and as a result it isn't used that often in professional Thai boxing matches." - Muay Thai Unleashed , Erich Krauss, et al.

Also read in Competitive Taekwondo that the side kick is hard to throw in combination with other kicks. Complete Kickboxing notes that the side kick requires more movement than the round kick, and self-defense specialist Geoff Thompson notes that the side kick is "over-rated" and that, being a long-range tool, is rarely suitible in the face of gratuitous violence, where kicking range disappears almost instantly.

Something to think about: while combinations with the round kick are pretty easy, the side kick doesn't lend itself to throwing combinations, especially when it's optimim range is outside of punching range.

Regarding the spin kick, GSP and [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qtw1VfdtTes]David Loiseau[/ame] have both used it pretty well. The thing is, as with all thrusting kicks, it's best to catch your target coming in. It's hard to time. And often the risk-reward ratio doesn't pay off. In UFC 4, a karateka tried a spin kick on Dan Severn, who he had stunned with a round kick; he was caught and dropped by the bigger wrestler.

IIRC, most Muay Thai bouts are only four or five rounds long. That's part of the reason they can keep up that hectic pace. And from my observation, for the Thais it's not so much a strategic battler as a macho, masochistic battle of wills. Western fighters will show some defense, like stepping out of the way, or blocking; the Thai "defense" seems to be to take the kick without grunting or grimacing. BUT, the fights are much shorter than what you're implying, meaning less overall damage scored.

 

The quote from 'Muay Thai Unleashed' most Thai fighters plod around flat footed and have poor footwork as they adopt the macho I'll stand there and take your shots view. Which would be a good reason to use it in Muay Thai, their footwork is often poor and they don't run away too often, they want to be tough and show they can take the hits. Most Thai boxers don't go on the balls of the feet zipping around the ring like M.Ali or Sugar Ray Leonard, usually flat footed and not able to move as fast or as well as someone on their toes.

 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yPfukurJdw"]YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3R4xtjl5b4"]YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukqmCiedafU"]YouTube[/ame]

Hardly "plodding".

The difference between Ali, et al, is that Thai boxers come forward.

At any rate, what does this have to do with a side kick? Or are you just looking for SOMETHING to critisize now that you've run out of logical rebutals?

 

Just because I love it - [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY[/ame]

Go in a ring against a Thai boxer and report back to us.

Em

 

It's a classic, ain't it?