Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by flyingleopard, Aug 14, 2005.

  1. James Funaro

    James Funaro Formerly "joe nobody"


    Do other TMA's suffer from this? I would imagine so. The instructors should always be looking for better and more efficient ways of teaching. Also, they should be looking for improved techniques, new material, and overall improvement of the system.

    I would expect that nowadays instructors would be taking courses in or at least be knowledgeable of biomechanics(they have courses at community collegesl), sports medicine/science, personal training, nutrition, and anything else they can get their hands on.

    Instead they seem to all just do exactly as those before them. We would not be breaking Olympic records and stuff every few years if all athletes trained the way those 100 years ago did. Why should MA be different? Too much grandmaster balogna and an unwillingness to realize parts of our own arts we cherish suck.
  2. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Maybe because knocking someone out is the same nowadys as it has always been :)
  3. James Funaro

    James Funaro Formerly "joe nobody"

    Really? So running a marathon is the same as it always has been. But somehow runners manage to keep breaking records every so often. Athletes today are better than athletes of the past, better training methods, understanding of diet, etc. But the events are still the same.
  4. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Totally agree with you there joe,my point was that the human body responds to hits in certain areas just as it always has,the old timers from all cultures had/have this knowledge and better nutrition,sport phsycology,bio mechanics etc does not change the fact that bang most people the right way in the right place and they will go :)
  5. James Funaro

    James Funaro Formerly "joe nobody"

    Of course. But the problem is not where to hit or what type of hand form to use. Its the need for a delivery system(Thornton makes it sound so cool dosen't he??)

    Seem like Kempo or whatever might be too technique oriented and it forgets to address exactly how the techniques are going to be delivered. Combination 6 or 11 will hurt, but so much time is spent on learning and repeating the technique instead of actually using it, making it practical.
  6. natkungfu

    natkungfu Valued Member

    Starting everyone in a boxing stance would be better than a horse stance and make them way better fighters.
  7. James Funaro

    James Funaro Formerly "joe nobody"

    I think Kempo guys should also focus less on hard blocking and more on slipping and weaving. Every kempo guy I see demonstrates technique opening with a block. Little head movement works in boxing, where they are dealing with plenty of punches, and in MMA to. I know MMA isn't the end all for some but even they deal with punches with body/head movement.

    It would put the kempoka (what do they call themselves?) in a much better position to strike in their style, maybe we would see more effective hammers and shutos, at least in non sports fights.
  8. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Joe, we've been through this time and time again, but I have to say again, the reason alot of people don't want to change is because it a) implies they were inadequate or unknowledgeable prior and b) streamlines all arts and styles into a pseudo-MMA format which runs contrary to their current ideology.

    I've long stood that all MA's should run their classes along an MMA-style sparring format to ensure proper aliveness, with the only differences being on the focus of the range they excel at, ie: TKD focus on kicking, Wrestling on takedowns and GnP, boxing hand striking, BJJ ground submissions etc...

    Now the problem that comes with that ideal, is that alot of styles and masters of those styles who have spent years making a name for themselves are now marginalized and pushed to the sidelines. Instead of there being hundreds of thousands are arts to choose to train in, only a dozen or so rise to the top in terms or real raw effectiveness at their given specialty. The long overdue Darwinistic purge in MA training would take place, and everyone would have to either adapt or die with the past.

    Arts, styles, and schools that train in the often trotted "proven" or "alive" styles would hardly be affected (Judo, Muay Thai, Sambo, Kyokushin, Savate, BJJ, San Shou, Boxing, Kickboxing, Greco Roman Wrestling, Daido Juku etc...) while chest slapping Mcdojo Kempo instructors would suddenly be put in the awkward position to 'put up' where usually their word is gold enough for their students.
  9. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    I should note that the above commentary only should apply to places that advertise "self defense." Obviously there's no purpose for a boxing gym to teach groundwork if their focus is to compete in boxing matches. The same for others.

    But rather, I'd say that Japanese Jujitsu schools should follow in the training methodology of Brazilian Jiu-jitsu while staying to the traditions they deem important that the Gracies have pushed to the side, and that Shotokan schools should follow in the way of Kyokushin/Enshin and Daido Juku.
  10. James Funaro

    James Funaro Formerly "joe nobody"

    Well there is another option for the kempo schools that won't spar or just refuse to stop sucking. I think with all schools, if they won't spar, they should be fighting once in a while. Maybe its immoral or whatever but damn if they just did it and won, we would all have to shut up.

    If I can mange to get in fights once in a while I'm sure they can!
  11. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    Personally i think "street fighting" is about getting in first,getting in fast,and getting in hard,once you hit keep hitting and dont stop till your opponent falls,kenpo has some if not most of these elements,vastly different ball game to ring/cage fighting(of which i am involved very much) ring fights have to be paced,and are often very strategic at higher levels,a street type scrap is get stuck in and dont stop! different games but all overlap of course,its good thinking of all this stuff isnt it guys!. Hope everybody enjoys the upcoming holidays and have a great 2007 guys n gals :)
  12. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Good point Cobra. Obviously in a self defense situation, you're not going to be dealing with an opponent pacing himself, keeping his distance trying to pick his shot. This is my biggest divergence from "sports MA" advocates when it comes to teaching self defense. I don't believe in all out role playing scenario training, but addressing situations that seldom occur in the ring/cage that often occur in reality should be an important point. But as Joe said earlier, the "delivery system" of how you handle yourself must be the same. The base physics of how to defend off of a bearhug in a wrestling or Jiu-Jitsu match is the same as in a street altercation. The ingrained techniques and responses gained from proper training translate to raw effectiveness in SD. Everything beyond that is nuancing and fluff, that can help but cannot replace that base delivery system.
  13. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Joe, what MA do you train in? Your public profile is rather sparse when it comes to information. Some of your comments might be a bit clearer if we knew what perspective you were coming from.
  14. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    I think a lot of application has been lost in the MA schools that don't encourage live training. Over time, techniques that really worked get to be stylized for show and tournaments etc. and lose their effectiveness when one tries to take the "Show Kenpo" etc. and use it in a real altercation be it a contest or real fight. Tournament judges tend to over look solid fighting technique in favor of gymnastics and flashy moves these days and it tends to effect the teaching in the classes.

    Another thing is the fact that many parents tend to use MA schools as a form of Off-season little league and that hs its effects also.
  15. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Good point on the changing of technique in the name of show instead of practicality. I saw that first hand at my old Kempo school where I taught. Certain motions were completely inane, but then a higher rank (usually my instructor/boss) would show me how they used to do it, but that it was changed to make it easier for the student to do, thus moving them through the ranks faster. Another common occurence would be a move getting changed in a technique or kata for seemingly aesthetic purposes only, with the application shown being barely workable on even the most compliant of demonstration partners, let alone a moving fighting opponent.

    I heard from my friend how during an instructor meeting they were debating whether in a certain kata whether to put their hand in chamber or open above their head. The common sense answer of "how about on guard?" never seemed to come up, but arguing how ancient Kempo masters would need that stance to block the sun from their eyes as they fought seemed pretty reasonable.

    Oh and Dan, Joe is ex-USSD out here with me on LI.
  16. James Funaro

    James Funaro Formerly "joe nobody"

    Yeah I'll update that profile now. I was USSD. Now I am 1 year into BJJ. I wrestled in high school for 3 years about the same time I was in Kempo. Trained up to 3rd Brown. Boxed for 2 months, but ven though its not much it really helped my standup. Thats why I think boxing is good for Kempo hands because my standup went through the roof after boxing for 2 months, made me look at the game in a new way.
  17. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Ah so.

    Well, it doesn't surprise me about the boxing you took. I think that many arts, especially the more basic ones, can really benefit someone that takes it seriously even if it's only for a couple of months. There seems to be a learning spike that occurs at the very beginning of training in any martial art. You go from not knowing anything, to being able to perform some rudimentary stuff. I remember, for instance, when I learned how to kick in Shotokan Karate without losing my balance at 11 years of age. I thought I was Chuck Norris! And, as silly as that sounds, I DID have more in common with Norris than all of the people that couldn't do karate kicks at all. That initial spike seperates the neophite martial artist from the great masses of non-MA people out there. It makes you part of the brotherhood. You never look at the martial arts the same after your first couple of months of training. When you look back in the direction that you came from, you see a vast gulf seperating you from the unschooled.

    Then, you look the other direction and you see this HUGE mountain that sits in front of you that you must climb if you are to get to the level that your instructor is at. Most never finish the climb. They take the initial skills that they got and quit after a while. Others will add what they have gained to future training of another sort.

    Either way, they gained something. I took GJJ for six months from Ralph Gracie's academy. Over all, pure grappling wasn't for me, but boy did it help me out over all as a martial artist! Nothing like rolling with BJJ guys for 6 months to change your grappling world and skill-set. But, I really missed punching and kicking people, so there was no way I was going to do that for too long.

    In an interview with Jose Fraguas several years ago, famed Muy Thai Master Surachai Sirisute was asked "How long does it take to become a good Thai Fighter?" His answer follows:

    "I know that what I'm going to say may be hard for some to accept for it destroys the notion that a practitioner must train for five or six years to attain the black belt rank. If you work on your conditioning, run, skip rope,hit the Thaipads, the heavy bag, spar and fight once a month, you can become a strong fighter in six months. Stamina, experience, and heart are the basics of Thai Boxing.I believe that the one stnding after the fight is the true expert."

    Now this man trained championship teams for years and was himself a champion, and he says "Six months" for Thai Boxing. Now, MT is a fairly basic art, much like American Boxing, so the technique-set isn't very large.

    Personally, I'd get bored with that as my main MA diet after a short while, but it's good to know that one can pick up valuable skills from an art like that in a short time and add it to your other training.
  18. nupe357

    nupe357 Valued Member

    What are the Differences?

    Interesting theread on USSD and Villari....I remember that the martial arts video review website seemed to like Villari's self-defense video (which suprised me a lot).

    So what are the differences in terms of technique and training between these two related styles?? Another question: Are their techniques/training similar to Kajukenbo??


    P.S. Sorry I just couldn't help re-viving this old thread! :)
  19. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Why did it surprise you? Do you have some background in Shaolin Kempo Karate? Did you see the videos and feel that they were not a good representation of SKK?

    They're not related.

    Last edited: Mar 5, 2007
  20. 14 Kempo

    14 Kempo Valued Member

    I can only answer from my own perspective. I was FVSSD and I am now USSD, so I have experience in both, although there was a 10 year gap between them. FVSSD seemed to be more street-wise, while USSD seems to be a bit toned down to meet the needs of the masses. As far as the techniques go, there are slight differences in how they are applied. USSD has implemented changes from the original material in both Combos/DMs and forms, but then this is something that happens in just about any art as it branches out.

    And now for the Kajukenbo question, I have no experience there, so I can not answer the question of similarity with any authority and therefore I defer to those that may have that knowledge.

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