I have started doing some Judo and so have been intrroduced to breakfalls. Having little experience with Judo or other grappling arts (I do boxing) I wanted some advice from experienced grapplers. Do the breakfalls used in Judo etc work in the street? Maybe I am just not experienced but I do not like the idea of slapping the concrete to break my fall as I expect I would damage the elbow or worse. Wrestlers seem to try to land on the soles of their feet - is this better for street self defence? What do the self defence systems (eg Krav Maga) do for break falls? This is a great forum!! Where else could you canvas opinion on such a topic?
Actually breakfalls are used by stuntmen on concrete and such. Basically as long as your hands land first and you tuck in your chin (if your landing backwards) then your body reactes and prepares for the hit. Chances of you being thrown down hard is slim, you'll most likely be pushed down or slip in a realistic situation, and thats not too bad, it whether you can get back up is another thing.
In Shorinji Kempo we regularly do breakfalls on hard surfaces like cement and wood, in fact I learned them on a wooden floor; however our breakfalls are different to the normal falls I have seen and have been taught in other styles. During Embu demonstrations or just training we use whatever surface is available. During periods of training where we may be thrown constantly for extended periods we may use mats.
We don't use the slap of the arm, but use the ball of the foot to land on. The leg that lands first should be bent, and the hips should be high. This bridging acts like a spring in absorbing the shock. The best way to understand this is to try and find some video clips and watch the technique, there are some on Swedish Federations site http://www.shorinji-kempo.org/ At other times, for example some types of seionage you won't breafall as such, but rather cartwheel over and land on your feet.
Most styles of ju jitsu do breakfalls using the feet for when your hands are trapped, as well as standard ones using the arms to break the fall. It all depends on the angle that you're landing at. Most people inadvertently use breakfalls on concrete in winter when running along an icy pavement trying to catch a bus. If you've drilled them regularly, you tend to do it naturally. However, the key thing in breaking fall is to relax. This is why you can fall down a flight of stairs when you are drunk and not hurt yourself.
Breakfalls should be landed with the 'meaty part' of the arm / hand (not the elbow) This means that any damage to you as a result of falling over will be bruises and not breaks or sprains. It is preferable to land and hurt your arm rather than your back or head. If you are falling or being thrown on a hard surface the chances are that you are going to suffer some damage, however a break fall is there to try and minimise this as much as possible, if you don't want to use them you can either not go down or land badly.
I have been thrown on hard surfaces for the last sixteen years; I would have no idea how many times. I have never hurt myself on a hard surface, despite not using the arm. I have hurt myself on mats though. Last year a visiting Japanese instructor was throwing me around. I was trying to watch how he managed to do it, I tried to interrupt the technique to get a better view of his body position and bam I was on the floor and my ankle had rolled in the soft mat and torn some tendons.
When done correctly arm breakfalls will stop you harming yourself. I was trying to point out to the original poster that the point of a breakfall is to limit damage to yourself and that it is better to use one than not. Out of interest how would you use your feet to control a throw/fall that put you on your side.
I gave a quick description in my earlier post; there is also a link that has some video footage. It is a little difficult to adequately explain. I should add that I would use arm type breakfalls in some conditions, like when your legs are swept out and you fall backwards. But given the chance I prefer to use my feet, especially on hard surfaces. The bulk of our throws come from the wrist so this may influence the difference, although our throws can be similar to Aikido and they don’t breakfall like us.
Hi punchy, I share your concerns about judo style breakfalls in the street. Slapping down with the hand always seemed silly to me, think about the potential of hitting broken glass, or slightly mis-judging your position and hitting the edge of a curb with your forearm. Judo is made for matted areas, suerly this is the cas, and in reality we should be careful of this. Given that this is the self defence section of this forum are we talking about street situations or pre-arranged, consenting breakfalls. I am sure that many of us can do very nice falls on whatever surface when we can dictate when we fall / roll out etc. I know i have done this many times. However, in reality, keep your chin tucked into your chest and try to land slightly on your side and with the bulky under arm area landing first. cheers, iain
I disagree to be honest. I tripped over a kerbstone when out running a few months back and went flying. I did a front breakfall on the pavement without thinking and didn't even skin my hands. There isn't much pre-arranged or consenting about the breakfalls people have to do from judo randori, it tends to be a case of limiting the damage. That's why it produces so many injuries, even on matted surfaces.
? Hi The problem with most MA's in the street is that in a dojo you have lots of space generally in the street you do not. Break falls require space which is often Not available in a street fight. Also as mentioned above instead of a mat you could have broken glass, dog mess, steps etc to land on. And how often do you think you will get throwed in a street fight? It is not a common street attack. MF
Why do you need loads of space? You don't roll out of everything. If you're going down, there is space for your body on the ground, and that's all you need unless you're doing some fancy technique. If there's someone in the way, then you land on them, so that's good. Of course complete beginners learn with lots of space and on flat surfaces, it would be stupid to do otherwise as they're bound to hurt themselves or someone else. That doesn't mean that it's not going to work elsewhere once they've learnt it well. I'd rather land well in dog mess, on broken glass or on steps with a semi-decent breakfall than land badly on my head. The last time I landed on concrete with my head, I didn't get up and walk away. I'm sure I could walk away with some cuts and covered in dog poo. And why would steps cause a particular problem anyway? I think we've all got different ideas of what a breakfall involves here. A breakfall is any way of minimising injury to yourself as you hit the ground; it doesn't have to be a beautifully artistic aikido roll. At a minimum, it means relaxing so that your body is soft as you hit the ground and you don't hurt yourself, and keeping your head tucked in. Wrestlers learn this by being dropped loads, other people learn it by doing gentler drills. Hopefully the end result is the same. Not often, but how often will I get shoved over, knocked down or pulled to the ground? Quite a lot I think. People get badly hurt in street fights when they get knocked over and land badly, hitting their head, or breaking their wrist/ elbow/ collar bone. If you aren't used to falling, you will almost always land badly.
I've used a rolling breakfall off a stepladder some 10 feet off the ground and survived without a scratch. I've also permanently smashed up my shoulder in the dojo on a soft mat. Them's the breaks! Tuck your head in and hope you chose the right technique. One factor in a 'street' context which may be critical - you'd better learn to get up very fast! Not all aikido breakfalls are 'fancy' but many are designed to get you back on your feet quickly.
You will fall however you have been taught and programmed to fall. I know I will use the techniques I have been taught because I have and do, not only in the Dojo during randori, but outside on a number of occasions. Trained responses work, it is why they use them in all manner of high stress related occupations, like the Military, Police, Hospitals etcetera. Even what you are describing is a trained response, and is no easier to use than any of the other ways I’m familiar with.
1. Sorry, I don’t agree. How much room do you think you need? 2. Not often but as Ghostfrog said, you will be pushed or tripped, especially if there is a group of attackers. If this happens I would rather do a breakfall or roll as it will let me get to my feet quicker.
Loved how you brought the real issue to bear, with the personal opinion of a "breakfall". Just wanted to add some to it. Maybe I am picking up the wrong signals, a bit, but it seems like a breakfall is being expected to make slamming into the ground painless. While this would be wonderful, it is not the case. A breakfall is an attempt to minimize injury so that you can go on fighting. I've breakfalled on concrete and asphault many times, and it is not a pleasant experience(not in a fight situation, but first on a dare, then accidents, tripping, and such). But the point is that I was able to get up quickly, with the ability to defend myself(no injuries that would handicap me). You ask about how practical it is to do a breakfall on glass or dog poop. If you have a choice, it isn't. But, when you are about to sprawl out onto the street, with glass shattered all over the ground, and an opponent closing in, you have little choice. You breakfall as best as you can to minimize damage. It is rarely perfect, but it is better than face-planting on the concrete/glass mix. Close quarters combat makes little difference on the theory of breakfalls, only on the application and technique. As Ghost Frog pointed out, a breakfall doesn't have to be a beautiful aikido roll. Same theory as before(sorry for repeating so much!), stop as much of the damage as possible. remember, a breakfall is a last ditch effort to avoid injury...its always best to avoid the situation. Even in a worse case, it is much better to try a roll than a breakfall(easier to get back up, quicker, less impact force) ...and there is my opinion!
well the my instructor teaches it is that your not trying to slam down on the matt with your arm, you are merely lightly touching it and feeling out the ground. he says your feet should be in th position as a normal break fall but you should not land on them hard rather make sure they are up when you do the fall so they hit the ground lightly when you make the impact. its kind of hard to explain but i hope that helps. also after explaining this he did a flip in the air and landed super hard on the mat and just got back up and started talkin again. just practice alot.
