I don't particularly see that as a personal attack but I would have to agree with those people in the GD forum in Mac's post. I think due to the nature of the bickering back & forth here we are getting a bit sensitive on both sides.....
If my teacher (that's my japaneses language teacher at college) informs me that Sensei does not mean instructor master or anything else, then I'm inclined to believe her and not some website however... http://www.budogu.com/html/sensei.html Here's a reference site with much more accurate information on the term sensei. This explains what I've been saying about tha actual meaning of the word.. Here's another http://www.ki-society.org.uk/articles/sensei.shtml And this explains about the contextual use of the term.. Regards
oh for gods sake chill out, lifes too short to argue about koi carp, accurate use of a foreighn langauge, and the position of a photo on a wall...im not aikidoka but from what i hear its you guys that are meant to be setting the standard for harmony, this bickering is getting no-one-nowhere and not verry quickly.
Blimey! I switch off for a few hours and it all kicks off again! I believe that if you look across to one of Koyo's threads this 'Sensei' issue has already been discussed quite amicably. But as soon as Dave mentions it, he gets attacked. Here's Koyo's quote: 'SENSEI A major difference in aikido training (in some clubs) today from when it first appeared in britain is the position of the sensei. SENSEI does not mean teacher it means ONE WHO HAS GONE BEFORE. Therefor the sensei is an EXAMPLE. ' The thread (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56700) contains no dissent from anyone; funny eh? Somebody here has a separate agenda - and it's not me or Dave Humm, IMHO. KickChick - I really appreciate your public intervention, but the genie just escaped out of the bottle again - and again the Mod was at fault so I guess your words fell on deaf ears. Suggesting to a member whose dojo has just been grossly insulted that THEY should take time out is not impartial IMHO, neither is seeking out a website to support a Mod's errors particularly helpful. Post #79 by Aikimac is where the start of the latest bout occurred: Quote: 'You didn't answer the question, but impliedly you are affirming that blue belts at your dojo are called sensei. If this was in the General Discussion forum people would now conclude that your dojo is a McDojo.' Dave did not imply, Aikimac inferred. AikiMac inferred something based on a false premise and then drew an unrelated (non sequitur) conclusion. I doubt if he understands those terms, but basically it means that he twisted the information just to create the opportunity to insult Dave. Most of the main contributors to the Aikido threads can trace their lineage back to O Sensei through just a few Sensei (2 in my case) and have several decades of MA training behind them to support their interpretation of Aikido terms, gained by them from impeccable sources. Personally, I think the term 'Sensei' may well be better applied to them as a recognition of that experience and as a term of RESPECT, which seems to have disappeared of late, even though the childish attacks, as one UK politician put it, are about as painful as being savaged by a dead sheep! If we're not careful, Aikido forum members may decide not to converse or debate with Mod's at all, and such a boycott would be regrettable, but understandable.
I have great reservation about stepping into this quagmire as I'm on a sabbatical and I have even more reluctance in "tooting my own horn" so to speak. As someone who has lived and trained in Japan for a number of years (I'm also in Japan right now on a training & research trip for the koryu ryuha I train in and teach in the UK) and as someone who can speak, read and write the language, the term, sensei (先生 ) does not mean "teacher", "instructor" or "master". This term comes from two kanji; the character for "before" (先 ) and the character for "life" or "to live" (生). The term usually refers to someone who is older or who has essentially "lived life before others". Essentially the grouping of ideograms refer to someone with greater experience and wisdom in the said subject of activity. In modern parlance, the term is bandied around endlessly, alongside mistranslations of the term. In a way, the term can loosely be used to mean teacher, but as has been shown before in this thread, is more of a term of respect. The proper term for teacher in the Japanese language is kyoshi (教師) To teach (教) and （師）venerable/revered. See the combination? For instructor, the term in Japanese would be either a). Shidosha (指導者 ) or Shisho (師匠 ) (which incidentally also can mean master). Now, just because Aikido is a modern martial art, that doesn't mean that we forget it's origins or it's cultural heritage. It is exactly these cultural significances and intricacies that make the art live. For without them, we have no historical context as to why we do what we do. {Situation: Student: Sensei, why do we train in katate dori/mochi? Sensei: Err, dunno. Shut up and train! } Doesn't look good does it? In Japanese, there is a term that is often used with Japanese classical culture - Wabi Sabi. It's a hard term to translate in to English, but to cut the sermon short, it refers to the rustic simplicity and age that makes things feel genuine or alive. (Example: At the moment, I'm training in iaijutsu with a saguri fitted to the saya. A saguri (Also known as a Kaeri zuno) is a retaining hook that kept your saya in it's belt when the sword was drawn. It changes your technique so much that I just can't describe it. Needless to say, it makes the technique more difficult and dangerous. Historically, 75% of nihonto and 95% of wakizashi had kaeri zuno fitted. Most modern Japanese swords and iaito do not have these fitted) This is a commonly unknown or ignored piece of wabi sabi. Now, do we ignore wabi-sabi, and just be lazy and allow things to fall into the way of mediocracy, or do we be honest with ourselves and train the mind in conjunction with the body, being honest with the tradition? Humble apologies for the inordinate length of my post. Regards, Steve Delaney
LOL, koi guchi (鯉口） is a metaphorical reference to the shape of the scabbard mouth of a Japanese sword.
Kogusoku - I'm pleased that you have chosen to post, as it adds weight to the argument that the closer we are to the source, the closer we are to a correct view. I think the voice of experience deserves to be valued more often than it seems to be here. If I'm choosing a medical consultant I would rather have one who understands the terminology and has been taught how to operate by the best in the business, not one who has rank alone to commend him.
Not intending to stir anything here, but more as a rhetorical question to provide food for thought. If you are entrusted by your seniors and peers to teach and instruct the art you have chosen to undertake for the rest of your life, is it not then your responsibility to know every intricacy, every small facet, every bit of history to provide your student with a greater and more authentic understanding of the art? If you do not, are you living up to the expectations and faith invested in you by your seniors? Isn't that the difference between a professional and a hobbyist?
This discussion is a classic example of what happens when aspects of an art are left by the wayside, it goes back to the analogy I posted several pages ago, language - or at least the terminology associated with aikido is just as much a part of the study as physical technique. It is my experience as a westerner studying aikido that much detriment occurs when we start to apply our own set of opinions to what is already an established working tradition with essentially nothing fundamentally wrong with it in the first place. I've seen several variations of this theme; variations which range from exclusion of techniques or training methods because the various instructors thought (arrogantly IMHO) they were no longer applicable in a modern society, to this debate, which discusses the viability of using the English language in substitution for the indigenous language for the art we study. They are all chips off the foundation which supports the art, This is not evolution or development - it is devolution and has no place in the study of Aikido or any other Budo for that matter. I'm fairly sure that I've stated this information more than once in this thread. Thanks for the additional clarification Steve. For my part in the debate I am quite prepared and happy to extend to Aikimac; and to members of this forum, my apology for any 'aggravation' be it perceived or otherwise however; given the information which I've provided throughout this dialogue has been factually and contextually accurate, it would be nice to see that recognised, and not merely dismissed. Regards
Nope. It's impossible for mere mortals to know everything. More to the point as I understand it the study of a budo art like Aikido is meant to be a personal journey. Background information is useful and occasionaly interesting. But you don't need to know everything that ever happend. Not everybodys understanding needs to be exactly the same. If it did it wouldn't be a personal journey.
Yes, and since it is indeed a personal journey, aren't you selling yourself short by not learning those cultural tidbits, bearing in mind that once learned and realised, they do have a somewhat altering effect to your technique and method of practice in aikido? I'm not just referring to background information here, I'm also referring to small bits of information that are usually left out of aikido textbooks. The things you really have to dig for. The things a lot of Shihan in Japan know and take for granted since it's their country.
We should all be able to learn whatever we wish, however we wish to do so. However, don't call it Aikido unless it is a thorough and holisitic study of of the art. As I've said before, we've almost reached a parting of the ways which is so complete that maybe 'Aikido' should be omitted and merely the name of the style should be used to identify what we do: Yoshinkan, Aikikai, Koleshnikov etc. Koyo's words about 'not changing the art but letting the art change you' should bring about some harmony here, and maybe a return to the core values of 'budo' rather than a hobby, game or sport. I too regret all the aggro on MAP, but most of this has come from those whose sensitivities have been offended by a challenge to their Aikido as being incomplete, i.e. lacking hard and fast atemi waza, weapons practice, Japanese terminology or cultural references. I can't perceive Aikido without these aspects, which are at the very core of our art. Otherwise, we may as well just be 'dancing white pyjamas' and worthy of derision. I've forgotten the Japanese for 'obligation' ('giri'?) but with me, loyalty and obligation are key to Aikido's future. The 'martial' aspect seems to be slipping away as safety and 'hobby' MA predominate. I'm still inclined to look around in a dojo and judge not on whether I want this person as a mate, but would I want this person backing me up 'on the door' or even in combat. As one of the RAF Regiment said to me as he spat out a couple of teeth: 'It's not tiddleywinks, is it!'. No, it's MARTIAL. I've no more to add, other than to quote a sad O Sensei who, when asked by a student if he could study O Sensei's Aikido, replied (paraphrase): 'You want to study MY Aikido? That's funny, everyone else seems to want to study their own.'
No I don't think so. It's a personal journey and as such must be relavent to your own life experiences. I also think it's important to discover things for ourselves. I think they hold a greater personal meaning that way. If everything I needed to know was dictated to me. Laid out on a plater just to be absorbed and memoriesed and regurgitated I wouldn't practice at all. There would be no point. But in some cases we do need help getting over or around barriers. If you want to discuss something or share information or ideas you simply can't afford to have a language barrier. If you do, then communication breaks down as people inevitably become frustraighted and annoyed and even angry.
And what happens when... as has been highlighted a few times in this thread, people think they've discovered something for themselves and then assume that information is accurate when, it actually isn't? The hard fact is this, we learn aikido from those we trust, generally those in much loftier positions than ourselves, if these people are not transmitting factually accurate information to their students, those students themselves go on to do likewise, and this has been clearly evident in this thread. I could cite examples but I think the indvidiuals concerned might see that as antagonistic. Would you elaborate on that for me? As I'm a shade confused on how you guys learn, practice and teach aikido within the rhelms of your dojo. The basic premise of instruction is as follows: Explaination - Being told the how, the why, and the method Demonstration - Being shown, the physical doing Practice - Your opportunity to "do" and develop There is also one additional facet 'imitation' which is used for the most inexperienced students who need to simply imitate the movements being shown by an instructor. How is this not being... "Laid out on a plater just to be absorbed and memoriesed and regurgitated" ? In Japan there exists a concept of development known as Shu Ha Ri which describes the levels of development in martial learning; Shu is the level where one obeys the principles of one’s master and learns them solidly. Ha is the level where one adds one’s own ideas to what one learned in the previous level and develops one’s technique. Ri is the level where one rises above what one learned in the previous two levels, further develops one’s technique and establishes a new personal style. It stands to reason that before one can actually start adding one's own experiences to a study of Budo, one has to learn all of what one's instructor has to teach. Which is why Japanese terminology is the universal constant when discussing Aikido - No matter what your primary language is, Japanese terms will be understood, and if they're not, all people have to do is ask politely.
