Aikiwolfie: Personal attacks are simply not on, Moderator or not. This time Dave is on the end of it, recently it was me. Are you really that sensitive about using English terms and practising 'Ki' etc. ? If so, I would suggest giving up being a Mod as I feel this role is incompatible with your recent forum contributions. Yes, this should be better said as a PM - but so should all your recent personal remarks. Please trade information, not insults.
I have always believed that someone who lacks discipline will be unable to discipline others. Aegis - you stated Mods should be fair. I see personal attacks, not fairness. Mods are entitled to opinions, but responsibility comes with that power. Information is OK, opinion is OK, insults are not OK. Aikimac - sorry to burst that bubble a bit, but Yoshinkan does not use 'dori' it uses 'mochi'. We also have Ikkajo, Nikajo, Sankajo etc. Pretty much everything else is the same, which is how we are all able to communicate so succinctly on these threads.
We are going to look into the situation and see if there have been personal attacks, and will come to our own conclusions and take appropriate action if it is deemed necessary. I admit that my last post was probably written overly harshly, and for that I apologise, my mood at the time was to blame. For anyone interested, the Report Post button is present on every post for rule infringements, and the admins or GMs can be contacted if you have worries about a moderator.
Mochi = dori, got it. On the ikkyo/ikkajo thing, ya, I would think that's a spelling difference moreso than a difference in the words. OSensei's name even gets spelled in different ways by different authors. Japanese writing wasn't built on our alphabet, or our writing wasn't built on theirs, or, whatever.
Hi. I think Shioda, founder of Yoshinkan style, uses YonkaJO meaning 4th 'control' in as opposed to Yonkyo as 4th 'immobilisation' because that was the vocabulary in use by O Sensei when he was taught by him. It reflects a young, vigorous and more linear 'hard' apporach. O Sensei then softened, I believe, both the Aikido and the vocabulary as he grew older. EDIT: Google search reveals that the JO in YonkaJO as a suffix probably originated with the older art of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. It may well be that O Sensei changed it to place his personal stamp on the terminology of his 'new' art. Health warning: My view reflects what I have been taught and what I've read, so please don't think I'm attacking anyone's style for being more subtle than my own. Aegis: Thanks, you're a gent.
Hi Guys, Don't stop using Japanese terms. As a Tomiki stylist Ikkyo Nikkyo Sankyo and Yonkyo are not terms we use Ikkyo is Oshi Taoshi, Nikkyo is Kote Mawashi, Sankyo is Tenkai Kote Hineri and Yonkyo is Tekubi Osae. I tend to get by with the various term. Aikido is a Japanese art most styles teach in Japanese. As someone who has studied under many Japanese instructors, using Japanese as the international language for Aikido make the learning process a lot easier. Gyaku aigamae ate in English is reverse facing posture attack, I think that the Japanese is easier. Shaun
Regarding the use of Japanese terms over English terms I was asked today the question, "So you then feel that there is a reason to have a go at one another about this???" My answer was long and worth sharing: I think one should use English as much as possible. Let me elaborate. Consider first that the 7 most basic aikido techniques have no reasonable English translation: ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo, kote-gaeshi, and sheonage. (Add a few more to the list if you want: irimi nage, maybe, or sayu undo, maybe.) See, you can call sheonage the "four corners throw" or "four directions throw" if you want to but what would that mean? That translation is no more clear than the Japanese "sheonage." You gain nothing with English. And, if you've taken aikido for a few months you know the above terms, or at least you’ve heard the above terms. I sincerely believe that there is not one solitary aikido book in print that does NOT use Japanese for these basic techniques and also several other techniques. I recognize that Yoshinkan students spell the first five techniques differently, but I have never thought that the spelling difference was confusing. I have to believe that an Aikikai student will recognize the terms when they’re spelled the Yoshinkan way, for example, and vice versa. I also recognize that Tomiki stylists might have very different names for these techniques, but, in fairness going the other way, Tomiki stylists should recognize that 95 out of 100 aikido books are not about Tomiki aikido, and, furthermore, I have to believe they read those non-Tomiki books and thereby know the names used by the huge majority of us. Contrast basic techniques with obscure techniques, as for example "side kick" or "roundhouse kick" or "front snap kick." These kicks are so unusual in aikido that it's not reasonable to expect the typical aikido student to know their Japanese names. Actually, I have at least one karate book on my shelf at home that uses English over Japanese for these kicks. (Even when I was a TKD student for a year we called these by English names, not Korean names, but that's not relevant. I digress.) To use Japanese for "front snap kick to the face" or whatever, and to not give the English translation, is to send a message that most people cannot read. You’re not communicating with the average aikidoka. You’re speaking over his head. In my mind these are the end points of a spectrum: basic techniques should be in Japanese because they have no suitable English translation, and rare techniques with suitable English translations should be in English. A lot of aikido will fall somewhere in between. Anywhere along the spectrum I would think the question should be, "Am I clear? Would the usual aikidoka know what I’m saying, or do you need a dan grade to know what I’m saying?" If the usual aikidoka would not know what I’m saying, then let’s open our conversation up to him by giving a translation on the spot. The point is clarity. The driving principal is clarity: we want everyone to participate in the conversation, not just the Japanese scholars. So, should one "have a go" at someone? Not exactly. I rather think one should say, "Hey, a little English in the interest of clarity so that we can all participate in this conversation."
This is a fun thread! My opinion is that the task of learning 20-50 Japanese words pales into insignificance compared to the task of actually learning the moves! One of the things about Aikido is that (at least the club I train at) it seems to be fairly true to its origins, and has not mutated into sub-genres. The founder really was a very intelligent man indeed! Our club has a a few essential terms on its web site: First Japanese. I'm getting to grips with them, but when you twig that irimi tenkan in the warm-up means take a step forward and then pivot and step backwards, in an exact manner, then it does make sense. Likewise, ikkyo, nikkyo, ..., rokkyo are just numbered techniques 1-6. Every discipline has some form of specialized terminology & acronyms, often coming from other languages or words not in common use (skiing: slalom/traversing/apres-ski/angulation, tennis: love-40/deuce/fault/dink, etc.). It just so happens that the Japanese martial arts tend to use Japanese words. It gets really confusing when people try it in English - I remember doing a karate course & grading many years back, and the Japanese examiner said all the techniques in English; it was very difficult to understand! Using non-original & imprecise terms can also lead to confusion; there's a thread elsewhere in this forum that is discussing what a "hook kick" is; the confusion is that some use it to mean a roundhouse kick delivered with the ball of the foot (in Japanese: mawashigeri jisokku), whereas others think it is the reverse roundhouse kick, delivered with the flat of the foot or heel (kake-geri or ura-mawashigeri). In that case, the original language is precise and not open to misinterpretation.
Originally Posted by aikiwolfie ..I think those descriptive terms would become far more meaningful and cause less confusion if they were properly translated. If this is your position then fine however; you cannot escape the fact that we're studying a sophisticated Japanese martial art with many cultural and social trappings all of which contribute to the overall package.. 'tradition' is what makes aikido it what it is. - Regardless of style Mac pointed out that I don't particularly follow a philosophical outlook to my own study however, I don't dismiss it entirely simply because it is part of the system. Indeed I feel I have a very good grasp on the ideological side to the art I study, doesn't mean I agree with it but, I am fully aware of it, its origins and reasons. You yourself stated that you don't follow tradition for tradition's sake, I'm actually at a loss to understand that statement because for the most part, tradition is what provides form and heritage to a system. Indeed do you consider the aikido studied in your school to be "traditional" ? I would assume you do given who your instructor was taught by and, your stance in respect of the English terminology preference in your dojo however, despite this information that your yourself freely provide, your only real justification for not using Japanese terminology is that it is [my words] traditional in your organisation because back in the early days no Japanese was used, that is a bit of a contradiction considering you .. "don't follow tradition for tradition's sake" You also go on to say in the quotation at the top of this post that you feel "I think those descriptive terms would become far more meaningful and cause less confusion if they were properly translated" In English I'm presuming ? Perhaps you'd like to consider the complexities involved in making the proper translations in to every language around the world where aikido is studied. Aikido is a global studied art, its difficult enough to get literal meaning of Japanese terminology in English never mind some of the more obscure languages on this planet. Being a tad philosophical for a moment, Aikido should be about unification of mankind not creating a situation where every foreigner on this planet has to potentially learn the language of whatever country he wishes to study aikido in because, Japanese no longer gets used. There was a time, about 30 years ago when the only really high level of aikido sourced in the world would be from the Japanese themselves, over a period of time aikido had been spread and developed through out the world where; we now have many high graded, credible western shihan however.. Whilst it may be a fair argument to suggest that the future of aikido no longer rests with the Japanese themselves there is one universal constant in this whole "thing" we call aikido, and that it was developed by a Japanese individual and therefore what we do is ultimately influenced by their culture and society, and if you care to delve beyond the surface, this influence will trace its way deep in to the very heart of the country and its people. As with my analogy in another post, if we keep removing pieces of the very foundation which support the art we study, it will over a period of time fall apart and, what is now known as aikido will, as I've said repeatedly, end up being something entirely different. I note from the video you posted of your sandan grading, you wear hakama (a garment which has its roots based upon a class society and an elite on at that), I note that you observe reigi (dojo etiquette) which also has its origins rooted very deeply within Japanese society, neither wearing hakama or performing reigi improves the performance of the student or the effectiveness of technique, yet you still do them. So much for not following tradition just for tradition’s sake. Aikido terminology isn't particularly vast and IMHO is just another part of a learning process which eventually leads to a well rounded aikidoka. Japanese terminology (some slight differences aside) is a universal constant because regardless of individual language we can all pretty much understand the rudimentary, I too have met plenty of Japanese instructors who teach in English however, their use of the indigenous language reinforces the practice of an indigenous art, an art we have chosen to study, and an art we (mere mortals) don't have the right to arbitrarily change or alter. Koyo has it sawn up in one statement, “let aikido change the person not the person change the aikido” EDIT : Why do we have two threads discussing the same subject? That in its self is confusing.
Are you reasonably expecting people to believe that there isn't a "reasonable" or fairly easily understandable translation for ikkyo et al ? If you take the time to understand the Japanese terminology and the physical application, it isn’t difficult to understand the meaning at all. You said 20-Sep-2006, 11:39 PM So what's the problem ? Indeed take a look at this post of mine where those Japanese terms are very clearly defined in english, and provided for us by Hombu Dojo. [here] I suppose you feel that Doctors, Solicitors, Engineers, Biologists, Botanists should stop using their specialist language terminology ? Many Greek/Latin words used in those forms of occupation are no longer used in mainstream conversation yet they form the foundation of the subject because, they are universally constant regardless of the nationality/language of the individual using them. Really, I think that’s fairly ironic coming from a guy whose last post with me was far from what you now present. However, I take on board what you say and hence forth I will only use English language, I assure you the dialogue may get long winded and confusing at times because as you seem to already grasp one person's English translation/understand will be another person's confusion. Additionally, this is a global forum right ? Whilst I accept the primary language requirement is indeed English, however, anyone visiting this board who does not converse fully in English yet, understands the Japanese terminology associated with Aikido, will at least, have a better understanding of what's being discussed. This is because Japanese is the universal constant when studying a Japanese martial art. Personally I think it is arrogant of English speaking people to expect everyone else to fall into line.
Read post #47 again. Some words are known by all. Some words are not known by all. Let us be guided by a desire to talk with one another, instead of over one another. "Aikido is love," and all that jazz. Forum language rules are here. That might not solve the problem. See, if at some point you talk about ikkyo or nikkyo or kote-gaeshi or something like that, a lot of people will not recognize your English words.
Ahh, another classic example of sarcasm hidden behind a smilie I guess you forgot to mention that you yourself cross-posted and, that both threads dicussing the same topic were started by you for one and Aikiwolfie for another.. Both moderators for this forum. - Your own TOS on this subject: Then I'll please myself when it comes to usage of Japanese language, anyone not understanding only has to ask or, do a little leg work themselves to gain an understanding. Japanese terminology is the universal constant in discussing Aikido, but then I've been making that same simple point all the way through this debate. It doesn't matter what language being used, someone, somewhere isn't going to fully understand. All they have to do is ask or, as I said earlier, do their own research. As I said.. all you have to do is ask, but then as with your previous point about whichever language is used, I guess we're all talking over someone at some time. I may well know how to converse in (basic conversational) Japanese however that doesn't mean I'm intentionally "talking over" you or anyone if I use some of that knowledge when I post with regards to aikido, indeed I haven't yet to this day, used any particularly obscure words or phrases, So let’s cut to the chase. I'd suggest that either, EVERYONE here no longer uses any Japanese terminology or, if they do, they include an English translation in italic so that everyone else understands the context and content of the postings. I'm quite happy to do that Indeed I'm already doing as much but, don't think for a second that I'm going to continue if you and Wolfie, the only two people using this forum at the moment; who seem to have an issue with the use of terminology don't follow suit. I've been a member of this forum since Jan '04 and in all that time I've used Japanese terminology to the same frequency as I am at this time, funny then that it's only recently become an issue.
Brilliant new Idea ....This doesn't seem to be going anywhere As a direct result of this dispute, I decided that I'll use the Japanese terms, yet, when using a term not native to the thread (such as a kick in Aikido) to append in parentesis the English equivilent. If I were to use a term that a person was unfamiliar with in the respective section (if I mentioned nekoashi dachi in the karate forum and a person where not to know it) and they asked for clarification I would gladly tell them what the referenced technique was. The idea of using the Japanese in my opinion is merely following that which our instructors learned, and to continue using Japanese terminology is important as it show respect to the creators, as well as utilizes a language to be universal throughout the art, as the Roman Catholic Church used to do with the Latin language.
I've been following this thread for a bit, not because I study Aikido anymore mind you, but because Japanese is also the common language for Ninjutsu/Taijutsu. And it's on that point that I have to agree with Dave, Japanese is the common language that unifies our respective arts regardless of what our native language is or where we train. Everyone in the Bujinkan knows (or should know) what an ura/omote/han gyakku (sp?) is. For that matter, most of you do also. And I didn't have to try and write it out in english, spanish, french, italian whatever. It's japanese. We all know what ukemi is, for the same reason. Now, someone beginning in the art may not know, but by the end of the day they will. And they can share that knowledge with someone else no matter where that person is from. I have to students in my class that are from Portugal. The older one speaks passable English, the younger one, not so passable. However, when I use the japanese terms, their faces light up, because here is a language we both understand.
I don't have a problem with including English translations within posts where I use Japanese terminology, Indeed I am doing so already; I should not however need to worry about which terms need or need-not translating; this is because, regardless of the moderator's attempt at justification of his own personal stance within a set of rules for this forum, there will always be people reading this forum who are unfamiliar with even the most basic terms thusly; the ethos and enforcement of the new rule set is flawed from the off set. Any Japanese term needs to have an accompanied English translation for the rule set to have the substance and purpose which the moderator himself wishes it to have. It's worthy of note that no one other than the two moderators for this forum have seen fit to complain about the fairly liberal use of Japanese terminology since.. Well forever that I can ascertain. As far as I'm concerned this whole issue isn't about Japanese terminology per se, its about two moderators taking an issue with me personally, the same two moderators who apparently study aikido (one of them a 3rd dan) who hasn't heard of some generic and widely accepted Japanese terminology associated with aikido. The same two moderators who've at times, repeatedly harassed me publicly on this forum to disclose my dan grade;[because according to one of them it is relevent and adds credibility to the posts I make, again no one else is being badgered to disclose their grade as part of a credibility drive....] and; one of which has recently posted attacks on me which would otherwise see any mere mortal on this forum either sin-binned or at the very least, their posts edited and a warning issued. I don't have an issue with the principle behind the rule set, indeed I actually suggested it in one of my earlier posts in this thread, I have an issue with what I consider to be the underlying reason why the rule set has come to being. Unfortuantly Brad.. You me and many others here seem to understand this - including two Aikido 6th dans who've contributed to this thread and support the use of Japanese terms, not so for the moderator if, you read his justification for the new ruleset. Go figure ? Given there's a whole debate on this subject with several contributors, his inclusion of his own biased stance as justification of a set of rules applied to everyone wishing to use the forum is, IMHO crass. Regards
Maybe we could reference this thread: http://martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36459&highlight=terminology as it has a lot of good information in it. However, the thread is too long and unorganized to actually be a good reference. I also think that many of the "Aikido" terms should be in a glossary or something in the Aikido resources. Rather than have to spell them out here just link to that good and easy to read glossary. I actually think that someone here, one of the moderators, should actually put in an Aikido terminology glossary thread that is nice and clean and easy to read. Maybe someone then could do the same with karate terminology in the Karate Forum. That or point to some reliable wiki. My point is that it is good to offer translations here, but we should keep it to only when needed or asked for, not all the time. Instead invest in doing it the "right" way and create or point to a good reference that is easy to find the terminology. I know it would help me. Especially with the way that there are different spellings and names for some of the same techniques across different schools and styles.
A glossary as a 'sticky' or 'FAQ' would be brilliant to have and avoid all this nonsense: Just how silly is asking us to translate terms which define the common terminology that enables us to understand each other in the first place? Very silly, I say. IMHO on MAP, common sense often prevails and posts usually transalate esoteric terms. On the odd occasion someone does not understand a common term, most will post a translation as a polite reply, even though the lazy so and so could use Google, ask his Sensei or open a book from time to time. Glossary - go for it as the best solution. Good thinking, Rebel.
