I thoroughly disagree with the underlined part and can think of no basis in fact for one who favors technique over philosophy to hold it. The physical techniques don't change one iota with the language spoken, nor do they change if you bow or not bow, nor do they change if there is or is not a picture of OSensei on the wall, etc etc etc. It is the founder's inner beliefs, not the founder's physical skills, that are promoted when the Japanese language and history and culture are promoted. So, if it's Shinto cosmology or O-moto sect morality or a warm fuzzy feeling of "world togetherness" that you want, then I would immediately agree that you need Japanese language and culture in your dojo. But if that's not your goal, then I fail to see why you need one wit of Japanese in your dojo. And I say this as one who embraces a great deal of OSensei's beliefs. Thoughts?
Well.. here's where you and I disagree. Do you understand the difference in tachi waza, hanmi han-dachi, suwari waza - ikkyo ude osae irimi waza, tenkan waza, ura waza, omote waza, tenshin ? So if your instructor doesn't understand the differences between these aspects of just one technique, because he/she has never understood the actual meaning for them (some of them have very similar meaning unless you understand the finite differences) .. How can you say that techniques don't change, chances are under those circumstances, a student may not actually be studying the full range of options. (I'm not actually suggesting that to be the case for you, I dunno) Mac... I respect your opinions but, I know which methodology I'd rather follow, at least with using the indigenous language for the techniques we study, we have a fairly universal method of communication and understanding. Indeed since I further gained a basic understanding of Nihongo (Japanese Language) I have a greater understanding of many of the applications and their meanings, now; I'm not suggesting that we have to go out and learn Japanese to merely study aikido (or any other Japanese MA) but, what I am suggesting is that there are so many aspects of techniques which just don't literally have meaning in English (or at best may seem to have several meanings) understanding a little of the language often clarifies these issues. However; lets agree to disagree.
Not at all Dave. I simply illustraighted that Aikido isn't about the language it's taught in and in fact the language used be it Japanese or English is irrelavant. Which is why I don't understand why you'd take issue with being asked to hold a discussion in plain English like everybody else. I don't need to attack your credability Dave. You lost it when you turned up here on your mission to rid Aikido of McDojos stateing if a teacher couldn't answer very simple questions about their history and training they had something to hide. And then immediately refused to answer some very simple questions about your own Aikido history. You can't even offer a simple peice of information such as your current grade. Which is relevant to students who may wish to take your advice as grade is irrespective of your own beleifes used as a measure of current ability and level of understanding. So you are effectively operating on double standards. LOL not at all Dave. But I do think you like the attention Now if you genuinley want to get back to the discussion perhaps you'd like to comment on the following.
Maybe this is a funny story, so I will tell it. We had a visitor from South Africa that didn't understand English very well but he had trained in Shotokan karate for years. I was able to communicate with him in class by using the Japanese terms. A different story, one Japanese/Okinawan instructor would tell me the Japanese terms for techniques after pulling them on me for the first time. I wish I could remember all the terms he used, but I was a bit distracted by the pain at the time
Since when did you become the speaker of all who prevaile on this website? My credibility may well be zero with you, but don't be arrogant enough to think that your opinion is automatically shared by others simply because you dont like seeing hard-liners like me take issue with frauds. Not "can't"... I won't, and there's a difference. What you convieneintly fail to additionally remind us by brining this subject up up now for a third time is that when Aikimac asked me my grade I inicially and openly on the forum asked him to direct his question to my sensei, then later, told him via PM what my actual yudansha grade was at the time. The only person here on this forum who seems pre-occupied with my grade is you. And the more you ask, the more you'll wait. Now you suggest that I should be more transparent with my grade because and I quote... Let me remind you of something you yourself said which has a direct bearing on this particular issue.. You wrote on the 13-Nov-2005 Therefore, my grade has naff all to do with the ability I might hold in comparison with you, Mac, Koyo or any other person reading this forum, unless of course they're members of the UKA ... For EXACTLY the reasons you yourself gave. but despite saying that your opinion was... You state, in clear contradiction of yourself in another post dated 18-Jun-2006 No sense indeed bud. Let me say this for a final time so there can be absolutely no misunderstand by anyone reading this, including those respected instructors who visit these forums and happen to be my aikido and Iaido instructors; Whatever grade I hold has nothing to do with anyone other than people directly connected with the dojo for which I'm responsible for. Period. If you wish to draw whatever conclusions you wish from that so be it, feel free to contact my Shidoin - Keith Hayward Rokudan so hombu he will confirm my yudansha status if he so chooses however; unless you think you have some form of grievance with me, IE you think I'm not what I claim to be.. But then I've never actually claimed to be anything other than a student of about 20 years and an instructor within my own dojo, feel free to again make your feelings known in exactly the same transparent format you expect from me. You said... I am an aikido instructor (BAB certificated) and I do teach Iaido - Muso Shinden Ryu through Phil Smith and Pete Brady, what of it?
Do you? I have yet to hear from or read from any 1st generation student who claimed to understand what OSensei was talking about or what he was doing. They all made their own interpretations. You speak of "ikkyo ude osae" often. It's not taught in my dojos. I have learned ikkyo done as irimi, and ikkyo done as tenkan. I have learned variations of both. But none of my teachers have ever said "ude osae." I think "ude osae" is just another name for the ikkyo pin. We just call it "the ikkyo pin." As far as I know: Tachi is a sword hanmi han-dachi is when nage kneels and uke stands suwari is when both people kneel tenkan is to turn ura is to go behind uke omote is the front of uke irimi is to enter into uke's space tenshi is "heaven-earth," as in splitting uke's energy upward and downward Ura and tenkan are interchangeable with respect to the physical aspect, but I'm told that "ura" carries a philosophical or spiritual nuance in Japanese. It's "behind" as in "hidden beneath the surface." To move "behind" is to look beyond the surface at what is underneath. Omote, likewise, has the nuance of "surface layer," so I'm told. The circle, triangle, square shapes so common in aikido imagery correspond to tenkan (circle), irimi (triangle), and whatever pin (square).
Sorry Mac but you did ask if I knew so here starteth the lesson. The situation that you've suggested to me, with regards to the names of the techniques, IE Ikkyo pin - indicates a possibility, that you are learning the sequance 1,2,3,4 etc but not being taught the contextual meaning for the waza. Ikkyo merely indicates the numbered sequance, - The first, number 1 ude osae however, is the actual act of application - this is the physical technique because it describes what you do (not the teaching sequance relative to other waza) If a Japanese instructor was saying "arm pin" he'd be saying "ude osae" not ikkyo. Indeed he was to describe a twist or rotation of the wrist in a specific or particular way he be talking of kote-hineri or perhaps kote-mawashi These descriptions are far more accurate than using the sequancial numbering although, I do conceed that very often the sequance is refered to more than the actual description, that said, the description exists and is far more accurate. Please note; to see the Japanese text you must have the language pack installed. Pretty much taken directly from the current aikikai grading syllabus. Hanmi-handachi (Standing and kneeling) 半身半立 (The Japanese for those who read it) The Nage is seated in seiza and the Uke is standing. Omote (A position relative to uke) 表 (The Japanese for those who read it) Front or in front of, used to describe techniques executed by moving across Uke's front - Often mistakenly refered to a Irimi (Which is a direction) Ura (A position relative to uke) 裏 (The Japanese for those who read it) Rear or in back of, used to describe techniques executed by moving around behind the Uke - Often mistakenly refered to as Tenkan (Which is a direction) Tenshin (A position relative to uke) 転身 (The Japanese for those who read it) Movement where one steps back and off-line of the incoming attack. Tachi-dori (An application involving a sword) 太刀取り (The Japanese for those who read it) Defenses to a sword attack, sword disarming Tachi-waza (Standing application) 立ち技 (The Japanese for those who read it) Techniques done while standing Suri-nuke (Step and turn) すり抜け (The Japanese for those who read it) An entry where one takes a step forward and then executes a pivot. Ikkyo ude osae (The first technique which pins the arm) 一教 腕押さえ (The Japanese for those who read it) No. 1 Arm pin Nikyo kote-mawashi (The second technique which pins the arm by rotating the wrist in 二教 小手回し (The Japanese for those who read it) No. 2 Wrist In-Turn to arm pin Sankyo kote-hineri (The third technique which pins the arm by twisting the wrist) 三教 小手ひねり (The Japanese for those who read it) No. 3 Wrist Twist to arm pin Yonkyo tekubi-osae (The fourth technique which pins the arm with a twist) 四教 手首押さえ (The Japanese for those who read it) No. 4 Wrist Pin Gokyo ude-nobashi (The fifth technique which pins the arm by stretching) 五教 腕伸ばし (The Japanese for those who read it) No. 5 Arm Stretch Rokkyo Ude-hishigi or Hiji-gatame (The sixth technique which may pin or hyper-extend the elbow) 六教 腕ひしぎ or 肘固め (The Japanese for those who read it) No.6 Arm Smash a technique executed by hyper-extending the elbow There will alwas be differences in aikido from one organisation to another and in a modern context, the terminology above (and much more besides) is fairly common and basic throughout the aikido community. I've trained in several places around the world, with several styles (whatever was available where I was at the time) and I've never had problems communicating and understanding on basic levels by using these terms in relation to my study. Kind regards.
Okis, here's an analogy for you, this will be my last post in this thread. Make of it what you will. If a koi (carp) is put in a pond with nothing around it, it will become lazy, eventually grow fat and soon become sick and die. However, if you put a decent stone with a solid foundation in the pond, the koi will remain strong by swimming around it. Tradition is the stone we swim around. However, if we take little bits of the stone away, at first it won't really make a difference, no one really notices as the missing bits are only small chips of a very large stone. For example - Not using Japanese in the dojo but, as we continue to take more bits and pieces off of the stone - We don't really need to bow to O'sensei, I mean, he's dead, who cares... Aikido either works or it doesn't right? What will eventually be left for us? Certainly not what is widely considered "aikido"... Perhaps we shouldn't even call it aikido, it's just a martial art, it either works or it doesn’t.. right ?? But then we're mostly English speaking people, why not apply this logic to every language in the world, What are we universally going to call aikido ? How are we going to agree on the names of the techniques ? Eventually after the koi has chipped away at the stone, the once strong foundation on which the stone was built collapses in ruin. If we wish for aikido to continue into future generations, we must continue to swim around the stone of tradition... And most importantly, stop chipping away at it. Regards
So basically Dave what you're saying is the Japanese names are nothing more significant than the descriptive terms used to tell people what it is they are doing? I don't see how then the art becomes any less valid or watered down if those names are translated into English or Spanish or French. In fact I think those descriptive terms would become far more meaningful and cause less confusion if they were properly translated. So far as being an old fish is concerened it doesn't appeal to me. I've never been one for holding on to traditions for the sake of it. When Aikido was first brought to the UK apparently there were no names used for anything. Then there were Japanese names. Then someone began to teach in English. You're right, Aikido has moved on a lot in that last 50 years. There's a certain logic to the progession there. The real stinker of a question is, has it moved on enough to deal with kicks
(bolded by me) Well, duh. Yes! By coincidence two nights ago we practiced defenses to the front snap kick. (Sorry Dave -- I only speak English, so I only know the English name. ) We tried irimi nage, and irimi with sayu undo, and irimi with a sweep, and a tenkan ikkyo on the leg, and irimi with an ikkyo on the arm. I say aikido works as well as anything else works. You just gotta move your body off the line. I used to do this same entry when I was a TKD student. If TKD students can dodge kicks, and they do dodge kicks, we aikido students can dodge kicks too.
Actually you've been had mate... As a cursory glance over this thread I noted the following Japanese terms and names being used by many of its contributors, non of which have come under the scrutiny of the moderators, no one has been asked not to use Japanese terminology: ikkyo tsuke shihan ukemi Uke sempai kohei Sempei Kyu irimi nage atemi Tori Funakogi Undo Shin Shin Toitsu Shiatsu Kiatsu MAKOTO randori ukemi kuzushi hakama jiyuwaza NAGARI kotegaeshi KEN SEN Eri Mochi ushiro shihonage... Despite all of these terms being used by several people, the only objection being raised to the use of Japanese terminology... Presumably as a petty carry over from yours and your fellow moderator Aikiwolfie in the vs. Kicks threas, was to my use of the term oyo-waza. I think that says volumes about motive. I expected a reaction from either you or wolfie in relation my use of Japanese terminology having read your comments in the vs. Kicks thread. Are you going to ask me for my grade again as well ? I'm done with this forum. A forum which is moderated by those who appear to have an agenda.
Agreed aiki mac we are talking to each other not japanese. In the street ara waza are used this term means severe technique devoid of any philosophical elements and used only as a last resort.oyo waza applied techniques still have the posibility of a breakfall or submission ara waza severe techniques do not hence they are rarely if ever used. Koyo If this forum has an agenda it is to discuss the martial art of aikido minus politics personalities or petty arguements.You need only look at the kicks forum to see how easily it is sidetracked.
If you don't like the forum, you can leave any time. But don't bother blaming it on the mods for expressing their personal views in a non-moderating fashion. Becoming a mod on this forum does not require someone to lose their opinions, just that they will moderate fairly. Anyone who believes that mods are not being fair is more than welcome to contact a GM or admin to say what they like, but until they do there is no reason to suspect that mods are doing anything other than what their jobs entail.
I have absolutely no problem with the mods (even though I am an old rocker myself) and have found their postings to be informative.As aiki mac requested evry japanese term shall have it's english equivilent. My thanks koyo
I didn't say every word needs a translation. Some words are standard everywhere. Here's a list of aikido terms. I propose that all of the bold-faced terms in this list plus sankyo, yonkyo, and gokyo are universal. Anyone disagree that those are universal aikido terms? (There might be more, but you gotta start somewhere.)
