I think you raise some very good questions mate and I'll be honest when I say I can't qualify them with an answer, purely because I wasn't there when Saotome Sensei was discussing his points however, I feel I can offer my own perspective. What I will say before I continue is that the point I was making using Ledyard Sensei's words were, that a Japanese instructor, and a well respected one at that uses both Japanese and English to reinforce his teaching. Why shouldn't we ? Anyway to respond to your comments.. I wouldn't have said that these "areas of Aikido" were unimportant, they may have less significance for me personally simply because they aren't the reasons which drew me to the art however, I realise there have been several discussions in the past and, what I would suggest is a more accurate summery being; there's a mixture of opinion either way. Never the less, regardless of one's own stance, both spiritual and philosophical aspects of aikido exist and cannot be entirely dismissed. Now of course this is a very important question and one which pretty much qualifies one way or another what Ledyard Sensei was saying. I dunno really but from my own perspective as an instructor within an organisation which has a great deal of Japanese terminology within its syllabus, I'm providing both physical instruction and theoretical knowledge basically from the day students start. Of course I try to ensure we don't cause information overload, naturally the information both physical and theoretical, is relative to a student's time on the mat, as is the gradings they take and the 'knowledge' they require for them at each given stage of their development. Given all things being equal (which I grant you they aren't always) I would hope that each student begins to understand the theoretical stuff IE the spiritual, philosophical, language, cultural, social facets of the art as they do the physical techniques. Basically I don't see the learning of a progressive building of Japanese terminology as any different to any other aspect of the art. However, if I may, I would like to clarify that although I don't personally follow the deeper ideological aspects of the art, I do discuss the subject as part of my classes and, whole-heartedly encourage my students to research and explore them for themselves, thus allowing them to form their own opinions. Some of them have respectfully challenged my own opinions and ideals with their own and I think this is a healthy environment for students to grow both physically and mentally. To knowingly conceal any aspect of the art from a student is intentionally deceptive and entirely unfair to those who freely give their time effort and eventually trust to their instructor. Well, I think I've expressed my opinion on this throughout the thread already and, indeed in this post but, your question is valid none the less. I think its all relative providing these students have been introduced to the terminology and more importantly actually understand and apply the contextual and literal meanings rather than, assume that a bit of knowledge they may have picked up along the way is accurate, as we've seen in this thread, there are so many misconceptions about Japanese terms, why that's the case I won't openly speculate with respect to people who'll perhaps think I'm being rude or disrespectful. Of course that could be the case, but then we'd both be arguing based on nothing more than speculation and not fact. Kind regards Oh a PS to Prowla... was that a long enough post to justify the size of my signature ? (lol)
Um. Isn't this more simple....Saotome Sensei did not have the skills in English to convey his meaning? I've entertained a Sensei who I was told was teetotal thanks to poor translation - and then had him order beer and whisky in the pub!
I think you might be right about Saotome Sensei. Around fifteen years ago when I trained in Aikido, my instructor was under Ledyard Sensei. I spent a few times training at Ledyard Sensei dojo (Aikido Eastside) under him and I remember one time when Saotome Sensei was there teaching a seminar. The seminar was open to all ranks from lowly me to high ranks. There were even two visiting 8th dan (or higher) karate Sensei from Japan at the seminar, I think. I might be confused with another seminar. Anyway, I will say that Saotome Sensei's English at the time was understandable but far from that of a fluent native English speaker. I do remember Saotome Sensei talking about how we needed to attack with more conviction. I don't remember what he said, but I do remember that he did demonstrate what he meant. Even so, there were many in class that did not understand and kept attacking without commitment or intensity. I understood what he meant, I had already been training in karate for many years before so it was not new to me. I'm not saying that I was at the same time and place where George (Ledyard Sensei) got his words from that Dave quoted, but I know I was probably in a very similar situation in a Saotome Sensei seminar.
My club is called the makotokai. When asked what it means depending on who is asking we can say sincere, truthfull or even for the hell of it meaning that we expose ourself to every facet of aikido and put 100% into the experience. Chiba shihan liked "for the hell of it!" Sekiya shihan liked sincerity. As far as terminology in my early training there was very little of any language used compared to today. Koyo edit see a man for what he does not whay he says (in any language)
I don't disagree that in the 50's and 60's when the likes of Abbe, Noro, Nakazono and Chiba Sensei were here, they didn't speak a great deal, the obvious reason for this is their English skills would have been negligible, however; in the 50 years since aikido was introduced to this country the art and the environment in which it is taught has changed greatly (some good and some not so good) but changed never the less. One of these changes has been the greater integration, use and understanding of the Japanese language associated with the art. Of course like most things in life, the longer we're exposed to something hopefully the more we learn. Since 1955 we've had many Japanese instructors who speak better English and therefore able to greater explain the finite aspects of their art, additionally we have westerners who choose to learn the language or indeed actually study for long periods of time in Japan. I also think its worth reminding everyone that when aikido was introduced to the UK it was just a mere 5 years after the end of WWII, connections with Japan were at an all time low, there were no direct lines of communication or transport and many people considered the Japanese 'empire' to be fairly evil in nature. It stands to reason that those exposed to Aikido 'back in the day' wouldn't have any comprehension of the Japanese language or really have a great deal of desire to learn it (if indeed there was in fact anywhere to do so at the time) Today almost all regular travelling instructors (from Hombu dojo at least) Speak some conversational English or, have access to someone a good level of Japanese/English skills. But today most people have access to so much reference material on the subject of aikido, people's general understanding of the art is already that much higher than is was back in the 50's and 60's. Unfortunately people's own perception of the material available today often clouds the nature of the art as presented by others, is that a bad thing? I don't know; what I do know is that not speaking at all or transmitting information purely in physical form only effectively works so far, eventually people need more information. Ultimately I really and honestly don't mind if people want to learn aikido and never utter a single Japanese word however, and equally so, I don't expect those who do speak,read,write Japanese or at the very least understand and use the terminology associated with the art of aikido to be criticised for doing so, especially considering Japanese is the indigenous language for the art and has vastly more accurate descriptions for many of the applications which in English (or any other language) do not have literal meaning. Kind regards as always Dave
With all due respect I think this is absolute nonesense. The average Joe out on the streets today who might choose to study martial arts has no more understanding of the Japanese language and culture than in 1955. In my experience when people take up martial arts it isn't with a view to learning the lanuage or absorbing the culture. They want to learn how to fight, they want to learn self defence, they want to keep fit or they just want to get out for a while and do something other than getting blind drunk or sitting in front of the television. Ultimately this is an English speaking forum. It doesn't matter where you come from in the world. You must post in English. And MAP has it's fair share of members from all sorts of countries. Peronally I have no problem with people posting Japanese on the forum. However this is an "open" forum. Any member of the MAP community is welcome to post here. Not everybody will understand the Japanese. So in all fairness you must provide translations at the very least when they are asked for without a fuss. I don't see why anybody should have a problem with that.
Aikiwolfie: I'm glad you qualified your comment that 'you must post in English'. Surely we've been round the block with this one so here are my 'famous last words': Nearly all of us on the Aikido threads share a good international understanding of the Japanese for basic techniques and also can press a Google button or ask for a translation if we are stuck..and I'm not aware that anyone has ever refused to do this 'without a fuss'. All the fuss here seems to come from elsewhere Those who visit the threads should make an effort to learn how to join in with this. Shall I trot out the Koyo comment again about: 'let us not change the art, let the art change us'? I don't join a cricket club and tell them not to use cricket terms becuase I don't understand what things like 'spin bowling' mean and need a lengthy explanation in prose - I learn! Personally, I don't believe 'the average Joe' takes up Aikido. Apart from some whose interest is derived from a wish to learn fighting skills, some come to Aikido, Iaido etc. because of a strong interest in Japanese culture. Others gain in interest as they learn more about Aikido and, strangely enough, that is what prompts most of the current discourse on the Aikido threads IMHO. Some members are putting together a Glossary for the very few who continue to moan about it. How about some praise? Finally, nobody did have a problem with it IMHO until those whose Aikido was taught in English started kicking up a fuss instead of realising that they were the odd ones out who should change to join in, not expect the majority to change to suit a minority (of 2?). If you learn Capoeira, you learn the language, music and cultural context - or should they be told to translate and discuss techniques in English too? And FMA? Even when using English, as in Tai Chi ('Single Whip') the term is no more clear to a newcomer than if it was in Chinese - it still needs those involved to share an understanding of the term in order to discuss intelligently. So your whole argument about Japanese is a red herring. What we share is common terminology, understood internationally. The fact that Japanese words are used is irrelevant to that mutual understanding. For some of us, it has a cultural and historical importance. Even if it didn't the fact remains that Japanese is the universal and international language of Aikido and I don't see that changing in the future. You mention visitor to the forum - some will understand the Japanese term and struggle with the English. I think it's time you finally accepted that in order to participate more fully in the Aikido forum, some people will need to learn more Japanese, and it is not for us to abandon what has worked very well so far. I would hate to alienate a the majority of Aikido members by seeking to make them converse in a contrived and unnecessary manner. We seemed to get along just fine using and explaining Japanese terms until someone's feathers and their insecurities got ruffled. I'm now going for my 'chai' (Hindi word, more properly referred to as masala chai (मसाला चाय) : tea with an infusion of mixed herbs and spices, usually drunk as refreshment in India, with hot milk and sugar, in a glass or metal beaker.) Chai tea now, Tai Chi later...
You may well consider it "nonsense" mate but you can't escape that it is in reality actually very factual. You seem to have missed the point of the inclusion of the information, it wasn't that people go out and learn Japanese before or even during their study of budo or, perhaps the culture of the society was a reason for them to start aikido, the point which you've clearly missed, is there wasn't any resources from which to learn and therefore use Japanese terminology at that time "five years after the war", this includes from the Japanese instructors themselves - Because they didn't speak sufficient technically skilled English to provide adequate translations for the terms Japanese to English -- Thus no terminology was used. A point you yourself have gone at pains to explain. Its not that those terms didn't exist in 1955, its simply that Abbe Sensei and many other Japanese instructors couldn't effectively convey those terms effectively to non Japanese speakers until they themselves (the Japanese) could speak a modicum of English. Regards Dave
Yes I also went on to say ... Do you have a problem with that? So do you think we should all be takeing a Japanese language course? Something which I've always found very attractive in Aikido is it's simplicity.
Aikiwolfie: It's simple - for those of us who share a common terminology, which in this case happens to be in Japanese. Take away all the cultural accretions and you still have Japanese at the core of our common understanding of the art. Why do you have a problem with that? Because you are the odd one out? Take a desensitisation pill and think about it.
As kiaiki says post in english if japanese terminology is used add the translation, Simple. The amount of space being used to "solve" this simple problem is quite ridiculous. Koyo As for the Japanese not having the grasp of english to communicate I do not think so a number of the early shihan could speak good english, It was the manner of training It was considered vert bad manners for a student to speak during training and chiba shihan still uses very little speach during classes, Even I who was once congratulated on my grasp of english!! by a japanese shihan tend not to complicate the classes with too much explanation. This is one of the main differences in modern training. Saito shihan who was one of the finest aikido instructors did so almost entirely by miming with stan Pranin giving the "explanations" which usually was "Too fast" , Too slow " lower the hips that was about as "academic" as it got.
There is no 'problem' to 'solve'. The problem is not external, hence the time and space being wasted. Some people hve internalised a selective view of Aikido. As they are Mods they should recognise prejudice and stamp on it until it is eliminated. The problem is in the minds of those who seek change (Japanese to English). Ye, it is ridiculous, but askyourself who is the perpetrator of this none-sense.
Hmmm... that would make sense. I knew my first karate instructor spoke better English than he portrayed in seminars. I think he wanted us to fill in the blanks and not have to explain things too much. Better for us to learn it ourselves this way me thinks.
Please show me where I've stated that I think people need to study Japanese as an entire language or that people need to study the language in order to study aikido. I am continually refering to "Japanese terminology" but you seem to miss that.. Convieniently. Once again you ignore the actual content of my post rather than address the point actually being made; thusly you waste my time and the time of other people interested in this subject. Dave
I think this thread is really a bit daft. There is no way a couple of people on MAP are going to reinvent Aikido with all the names in english. In fact, the very name Aikido is Japanese. Shall we rename it to "the way of spirit and energy forum"? Nope - it would be silly. AFAIK, this is the only forum in MAP where anglicising the names of the components of the discipline is being proposed. In some cases, the English names of the moves would add no more meaning anyway - is "first technique of Aikido (sorry - the way of spirit an energy)" any better than "ikkyo"? Not really, I'd say, because "ikkyo" has a specific meaning in the context. Also, it is patently obvious that you could not pick up a single Aikido move by studying the posts in these fora. You have to go to a class. Where the terms will be in Japanese. So you'd have to learn them anyway. As Dave Humm says, learning a few terms does not imply you have to study the whole language to degree level, and learn kanji. It just requires a limited specific technical vocabulary, which is no more complex than the jargon you would learn in a job in a particular field, or in another sport. Further to that, learning the words pales into insignificance compared to learning the moves. Aikido is one of the more technical MAs and requires serious dedication to studying the techniques and nuances. If you can't be arsed to learn the names of the moves, then what hope have you of doing them? The idea of a terminology dictionary is good, apart from two things: (i) there will be arguments ad-infinitum about what a term really means, and (ii) there are plenty out there already (I put "aikido terminology" into google and got 1,490,000 hits!). So perhaps it could be a wasted effort. So basically say use the correct Japanese terminology, and don't try and fix what ain't broken!
