In Aikido, the uke takes his own posture as it is preferable to the infliction of pain that creates a similar effect anyway (i.e. uke's posture is taken). Without ever been hit fully in the face before, I wonder whether I am reacting as accurately as I can and whether my uke is reacting accurately for me when I apply technique. How then do you respond as Uke to something like an elbow to the face or punch to the rib for example? What determines/determined your reaction? How are you effected by a strike in reality? For me, I can see the distraction but not neccessarily the loss of posture (when I get hit during kickboxing, I sometimes stand still, dazed, but balanced. I think it may have been because I was expecting to take a hit so I was prepared for it). Any thoughts?
What a good question! My experience is this: To practice targeting and delivering some atemi, we use a hand as a target (e.g in front of the face) so the tori can put some real force behind the strike. For other types of atemi, the strike is full on and if you fail to react, you get hit - a good motivator if ever there was one. The two examples you give of elbow to face and punch to ribs are those where in my style, light contact is used. A little pain or bruising may result, but uke still has to 'go with it' and 'act realistically' as if we have been hit hard. The difference with kickboxing is that, as nobody wears pads or gloves in Aikido, a full on strike would damage uke badly. Sometimes, it may be possible to pad up to take some full on atemi, but usually, it is like many things in aikido - ukemi is the escape from a very real risk of being broken. In freestyle jiyuwaza there are no restrictions. Uke will attack with the speed and force relevant to tori's grade - if tori fails to defend effectively, he or she gets hurt and possible damaged. Don't know if that applies in other styles, but I don't know of any style where co-operation in practice isn't vital. I would also add that IMHO the worst Aikido I've seen is in clubs where they go through the motions of a technique without understanding WHY uke moves in a particular direction the first place, i.e. atemi. Any beginner who asks 'why can you put that lock on me now?' and is met with a 'just co-operate' answer instead of 'becuase I've just smashed your face and/or distracted you' may well be in a McDojo, so keep asking the questions!! P.S. Scroll down to the bottom of the page and look at 'Similar Threads'. There's some good stuff in there.
As uke you should always be honest with your training partners. If a technique is so blatantly wrong it would never work then you shouldn't allow your self to be knocked off posture. I say blatantly wrong because we all have to start somewhere and no body is going to get a technique 100% correct the first time. In Ki Aikido students are taught to follow techniques while maintaining their co-ordination when the technique is performed correctly. What is considered 'correct technique' changes slightly with grade and experience. So allowances are made for students of lesser experience with the more experienced student providing feed back. However you train you need to be honest, otherwise you're usless as a uke.
We use atemi not nessesarily to unbalance uke, but to draw his attention away from the actual technique. His response doesn't really matter, as long as it prevents him/her from countering efficiently, and gives us time and space for the next tai/te sabakki.
Dont know about giving up your balance just because some1 puts a fist infront of your face, sounds like another one of these aiki styles that looks for uke to make the tech work rather than nage doing all the work. It should be ukes role to just give a good strong attack and keep his own awareness around him/her. Its nages job to blend with uke, not uke blend with nage(that would be far to easy) nage has to learn to blend and take ukes balance through a strong attack or grip/hold(much much harder) this in turn makes nage a lot stronger to effective attacks, his/her hips are alot more grounded and solid. I see this in my area with ceratin other styles, when i train with them or they come to my club, its like there stuck to me completley, so i dont really have to do much blending or anything really as they are always following me like a lap dog. Which teahces me NOTHING. I have no idea if my tech was good or bad because they just give themselves to the tech without being taken. i personally think this is very weak training. I remember saito sensei in Iwama ripping up this kind of ukemi, it was very funny.
Ron, you seem to be confusing co-operative practice with applied technique. If uke does not blend with tori (nage) then the whole science of ukemi is out of the window by your definition. If I smash your nose and eyes to a pulp, I guess I am able to take your posture? Why is the word 'aiki' a problem for you? It includes all and any techniques as it refers to an attitude of mind, not to a style of aikido, which is ALL 'aiki'. Uke does NOT make a technique work: In our style, if the technique is rubbish, uke does not try to make it better. You may have received some very bad tuition to be so prejudiced. We PRACTICE with each other in a manner which leaves us undamaged. However, when we come to 'jiyuwaza' freestyle at the highest levels, uke is free to attack however he or she pleases, and our defence needs to be robust or we do get seriously damaged. It's a matter of skill level - perhaps at your grade you are not put in mortal danger by a random attacks from a good Uke with a live tanto? If you were at this level, you would not be making this point, I assure you. Atemi in many styles is a 'distraction' - ranging from a slow punch to a floppy wave. The atemi I am familiar with is fast and hard and aimed at causing damage. Beginners are, for sure, treated gently, but the art at BB level involves a risk of serious damage if a defence is poor. What is your problem, as you seem to see 'Aiki' as a style and can't move beyond that? I don't know what style of Aikido you may have seen, but we all hopefully 'practice' safely and 'apply' in a manner which will seriously damage an attacker. Something tells me you have not personally trained with Saito - correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think he killed all his Ukes - ergo he trained sensibly. Got it yet ?
Ok your def right there, i would completely agree with all of that, its maybe how ive put it. I dont mean anything about smashing or making contact with atemi or being a dead uke, (far better than i could mate ) your point on taking ukemi is exactley how i see it, but what im trying to say is there can be to much commitment from some ukes to the point , lets say in kihon waza, as thats where i find the biggest problem, where they move far to easily, of course uke has to blend aswell, especially for there on survival and finding kaisha waza but to the point where i dont feel like im actually doing the tech or taking there balance using my body and blending with them. Now when i talk about saito sensei, laughing at them, its really in the basics that im talking about. Kihon waza should be hard work on th ebody to make it strong especially the hips. But ye once again kiaiki i totally agree with your points on being uke and atemi, ive not put it very well. As for me never training under the chief mate ive spent a total of nearly 5 months uchideshi in Iwama, saito died when i there in 2002. very heavy time.
Interesting question. I believe it is important to look at what the goal of the exercise is. In some cases, the goal might be a reinactment or a scenario, in which cases, uke's movements can be fairly scripted, only breaking away from the script for personal safety concerns. This might be the case when learning something new, performing a demo for a video tape, or reviewing techniques. For more alive training, the goal of the training for nage is to test out techniques and gain experience against partial or fully resisting ukes... or what would be closer to a real combat context. But for uke, the goal is to give a good attack to nage AND protect themselves. In other words, the primary concern of uke could be said to be to protect themselves using the tools and natural abilities at their disposal. In Aikido, uke is trained to protect themselves through a process of blending, in something like karate, uke may primarily be taught to intercept or block attacks as a method of self-protection. So to answer the question about how to respond to something like an elbow to the face, the answer I can give is you protect yourself as best you can. Whether that be to evade, roll with blow, cover, block, intercept, blend, whatever comes instinctively and naturally based on your training and experience. And I can attest that it does help, coming from a martial art that does full contact sparring/training, there have been many times that ukemi skills have saved me from possible serious injury or death during training.
Ron: Good response. We are not as far away as I thought. As you are alive and kicking, obviously Saito Sensei did train hard, but with no lethal intent I put Aikido into 4 'compartments': Demonstration and Exhibition: where Uke and Tori co-operate fully in what they do, in order for others to see the art. Experimental training: We start with common techniques and see where we can take them. Uke and Tori make mistakes and evelop expertise. Jiyuwaza (freestyle): Uke attacks either predictably or randomly but does not co-operate with Tori to make the technique work. Self defence: There is no assumed pattern to either attack or defence - Aikido is only as good as the skill of the defender.
