I call them "over the top" ukemi. Because you flip over the top. And in my experience they scare the b'jesus out of most people. How they're performed isn't really that much different from the rolling ukemi and I have found it helps somewhat to introduce people to these ukemi early but under more controlled conditions than an actual throw. The problem most people have with these in my experience is the same problem they have with all ukemi. A simple and very normal human fear of getting hurt.
I think it is more down to tori. If he truly understands the technique HE can guide uke into a better breakfall.
Aren't some breakfalls required purely for uke to protect themself? Some techniques would not be a throw without uke knowing how to get out the situation safely, they would end up as some form of joint destruction. Don't get me wrong, I hate dive bunnies too but a fast kote gaeshi wont throw me, but it would severely damage my wrist/arm/spine if I didn't "catch up" and make the over the top breakfall. The knack though is not to anticipate and only go at the right time thus tori gets to perform the technique full on and the uke gets the chance to get their own back. :evil:
It's my understanding all ukemi are purely for uke to protect themselves. People don't naturally roll around when thrown. If you do manage to throw someone to the ground they will fall awkwardly, twisting, tripping and stumbling in all sorts of bad ways with out stretched arms. The only scenario I can think of right now where someone might be thrown with an ukemi like landing in reality would be if some sort of koshinage was used or something similar. This is something that can actually be tested under controlled conditions with a complete novice who has no knowledge of ukemi. Kotegaeshi is a good choice of technique for this test. It's easy to control the test. Uke won't fall too awkwardly and the technique can be stripped right back to something as simple as tori grabbing uke's arm and simply applying the technique.
I agree. It's just been my experience that some uke need that little extra training. Without it, their fear of the outcome forces them to look for the exit before they've even attacked.
I've never passed out. But I do get dizzy spells and see stars if I stand up too quickly. I used to suffer motion sickness as a child and I have sinus issues. But I don't think that's what Rebel is getting at. I think he means if you get up too quickly you might just stand up right in the path of a fist.
afhuss - nice video. Everything you've said makes sense to me. I'm sure I've seen a couple of other videos with the uke in that video. I remember one in particular with brilliant soft flip falls.
People should know their limits. After many falls, I've seen people slow down a bit. Teaching and learning how to recover quickly and take advantage of opportunities should just be part of the fundamentals of ukemi training IME. I have seen competitions, sparring, and real fights where getting up too quickly did lead to knock outs. A friend of mine got punched in the face in a karate competition and he got up quickly all angry (he was quite the hot head). His face turned all white and he passed out moments later. In real world, I've seen at least on occasion where a guy got knocked down, got up really quickly and hit his head on the edge of a table or something else not so forgiving. IME, you do in a real world situation what is trained into your muscle memory from training in the dojo. Getting up quickly is more advanced, first comes the lesson of getting your feet under you, recovery, and awareness (the fundamentals)... after all that becomes instinctive... then I have no problems if you CHOOSE to stand up quickly (as this does show fighting spirit and can show respect for others). Well both aikiworlfie. Awareness of your own limits (e.g. are you dazed and going to pass out if you get up too quickly) and awareness of what is around you (e.g. are you missing an opportunity to counter attack while still on the ground... are you going to stand up and hit your head on the edge of a table... etc.). Well if someone knows they are going to get hurt or killed, they can often prepare themselves to the point that they accept it and relax. It is the unknown outcome that can be the most scary, IMHO. I remember one time I was thrown by my head (a neck breaker technique) and tori allowed for me to save myself... I felt I had died right there, my life literally passed before me. I knew I had a near death experience. I was quite shaken up by it. I feel it is important that uke always feels that they have a choice, even if they only have one choice... it is a choice. The instinct is to protect yourself, and if one counters this instinct then that can lead to internal conflict and hesitation... and bad things to follow. For shihonage, for example, we were taught to put uke's forearm close to the side of their head to aid in them taking ukemi. At more advanced levels, the arm was away from uke's head (this can lead to breaking the arm in four places). This would be ara waza. It then became uke who had to put the side of their head to their arm as part of the ukemi. It is very scary... but uke now had an instinct to protect themselves and that instinct was to get their arm to the side of their head. Even to the point that I would grab my own arm with my other hand so as to aid in bringing the side of my head to my arm during ukemi for shihonage. Maybe not the ukemi others do... so just how I view it.
I thought I knew what ukemi was I have been doing Aikido for just over a year and I was at the point where i was fairly comfortable getting thrown around. I thought I had a suitable level of Ukemi to get me through. Well, I've just returned from Japan where I completed a two week intensive course with Takeno Sensei and his chief instructor Nakagawa Sensei. Dear God do I know what it means to do Ukemi now. Takeno Sensei was pretty displeased with the state of our Ukemi when 8 of us turned up from the UK and gave us suitable bollockings....including our UK sensei who is a 5th dan. Takeno Sensei dedicated about an hour every day to just ukemi. Fall after fall after fall after falll. Everywhich way. In two weeks my ukemi level has rocketed. I can get thrown all over the place pretty hard and still get back up for more. I look back on what I was capable of before and it makes me laugh I finally understand just how important ukemi is if you want to train with (or be thrown by) peolple of the level of Nakagawa Sensei and Takeno Sensei. if you really want to see a technique performed the best, most effective way, and you want to FEEL that technique then your Ukemi has to be fantastic. Towards the end of the two weeks we were having an irimi nage lesson. Nakagawa sensei decked me pretty hard about 6 times in a row. i kept getting back up inspite of how hard i was being slammed into the mat and I felt pretty pleased with myself, but as i got up from the final throw Nakagawa sensei politely informed me that she was only using half her power as my ukemi still wasn't good enough.....Awesome
