But the downward force is only applied with one hand not two, in what you are saying it would take three hand to acomplish, when strikeing in kenjutsu only one hand is doing the strike, science or not, if you took a kenjutsu class you would know this.....cloud
Ok evn though one hand is applying the force in the direction of the strike, the hand appplying the force in the oppisite direction on the handle is also applying force in the same direction as the lead hand onthe blade. And there is more to swinging a sword than your hands and arms there also shoulders and hips and your torso. And it is easier to apply your hips shoulders and troso to power your strike when using both hands.
Quite true. Quite true. Yet even if the other hand is "stationary", the fact that it is holding stationary as a fulcrum focuses the force exerted by the primary hand in a way that one hand alone cannot do. Think of a typical lever action can opener: try opening the can by merely pressing the blade against the can, or ramming it against the can, all without latching it to the rim. More often than not, you will merely dent the can, but not pierce it. Yet, merely latching it to the rim allows you to pierce through with seemingly minimal force. A typical hand-operated paper cutter demonstrates this as well: with the sort of blade it has, you cannot merely "chop" down on the paper without a lot of effort, but with the relatively stationary fulcrum, it's a cinch.
Have you ever taken kenjutsu, kendo, shinobigatana, iaido, iajutsu, anything?? just curious if you are speaking out of schooling or SEA tournaments? the only thing the second hand is doing is controlling the cut the blade is making it is not applying downward, sideway, upward force depending on the direction you are swinging, now if you were to say you have a much more controlled cut with two hand rather than one I would agree, but you did not, you said that the force of the cut would be stronger, wrong, since you brought musashi up you are speaking of KENJUTSU, then no, one hand as just as much force as two, it is possible for one hand to have as much control as two but not likely....Cloud
Forget it. You really arent worth the effort to educate seeing how several others have already posted what I was going to post. And besides that this thread was suppsoed to be about fighting with two weapons regardless of whether or not Musashi did or not.
no this thread was about fighting with two SWORDS not two various weapons of your choosing jut to prove your little SEA point....maybe in other fighting forms the second hand has something to do with the force but in kenjutsu it does not..... but I not worthy of your mighty education oh grandmaster of two sword fight skills so please forgive my intrusion in to you pathetic life....
The problem here is, we're discussing potential. The way you compare it is like comparing the capacity of two unequal sized containers and saying that the capacity is equivalent just because the water in them is equivalent. While YOU may not have more force when using two hands, two handed wielding is none-theless capable of more force due to the leverage principle already stated. With that stated, i'd also like to point out that many kenjutsu teachings include the usage of applying opposing force between the leading and following hand, which results in leverage. This I know as definite, simply because I've seen countless articles on it and met many who teach it in this manner. To consider YOUR style the "one way" is ignorant. .
He meant SEA South East Asia. To stick in a few more yens worth: I will be there in a few weeks to teach. Some of my students there do other two handed weapon styles. But I think they would be the first to say that what they do bears no resemblance whatsoever to anything Musashi did. As I already mentioned Japanese weapons are about using Kahanshin (lower body power to motivate a technique) if its one or two, heavy or light. Up to now these techniques are Okuden waza and are not taught in the open Dojo. But things are slowly changing.
It is interesting to note that the modern day school of Niten Ichi Ryu school (actually, the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu) uses lighter than normal bokken for practice. Hmmmm... how come? Probably because, inspite of Musashi saying that holding one sword with two hands is not the true way, actually trying to fence with a normal weight and balanced bokken and katana with just one hand is too difficult. I got the pictures I am attaching from this web site on Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/8187/Niten.htm . I mean, look at the pictures and compare how itty-bitty they are compared to normal bokken. Musashi is still not wrong; to train to be able to wield a sword with one hand as strongly as if wielded by two is a good ideal. But it is interesting to note, also, than when Musashi faced some of his most dedicated opponents, he used one katana or bokken. The thing is, one can still effectively fight with two weapons, but let's not say that, on any particular individual, that wielding it with one hand has the same applied power as when wielded with two.
i always figured that the lighter versions are far those who arn't strong enough to use real weight weapons. I for one, use a full weight bokken when using one hand.
Sorry your wrong. Having held Musashi's Jiso Enman no bokuto a few times I would say we are using similar weapons http://www.hyoho.com/boto.jpg They can be lighter. Perhaps begginers are not used to using one hand. Also the same as other sword arts older people generaly settle for something lighter. The thing is perhaps you start with a lighter weapon until you get used to it At the moment most of us use fairly heavy ones. Everyone uses one that has been hand made. The ones sold by budogu-ya are nothing like the weight that is required, the tsuka is too thin, worst thing is the kodachi is a complete waste of time. I break a few every year doing kodachi waza. Defending against cuts that stop about an inch from the floor is heavy work. Soke uses an ebony one. I am using Ipe. Others various heavy woods. The Fukuoka-han style bokuto is quite heavy too. You also mentioned Musashi's use of one bokuto in duels. I have mentioned earlier on in the thread that the fundamentals of the Ryu are with one weapon with one hand. Two weapons are okuden waza and a short sword even harder.
Yep! See, that's what I was saying. The lighter weapons are for starters. You'd normalyl work up to the real weight. Which is one reason most peopel dont' start with a real sword cause metal is much heavier than the wood. =) Anyways, Hyaku> if you dont' mind answering this... in the book of five rings, I understood it in the sense that he said that to not use two swords is dying without using everything you have. And he said that the best way to learn to wield one-handed is two have two swords in your hands. So, why is it that so many teachings of his style start off by using only one sword at a time? Am I misunderstanding something?
To try and answer there is just so much to take into consideration apart from which hand does what that we have to learn. Old ryu are keen on Yokewaza, the techniques of being able to attack and at the same time avoid being cut. There is very little head on confrontation unless we can determine to-maai (outside cutting distance). There is so much to learn in deriving power from the hara, "very" low hip techniques, different grip different set of muscles coming in to play. the timing of things etc. The list is endless. I used to think the one weapon technique was going on too long. I did a good seven or eight years or fundamentals and of course still do it. But now I can concentrate on two weapons I think, thank God I can do the fundamentals without having to think about them and concentrate more on the hand work. Most of all we do have an opponent and we don't wear protection. You probably spend more time getting out of the way at first rather than responding. There is very little of, "Well your still a begginer so I will slow things down a lot. Just too much to take in all at once and Musashi's way of doing things in stages to improve. I have practiced and taught Kendo/Iaido for years and done battojutsu. But these cuts do not finish with outstretched arms. Strong full blooded cuts with intent that finish a centimetre from the floor have to be treated with respect.
Interesting... I always understood Musashi's style to be quite confrontational. Considering that two of his initiatives are entirely offensive and the other is just variation of offensive. And it seemed to me that his style wasn't about avoiding your opponents strike, it was about pressing it down and preventing your opponent from doing anything effective against you. With that understanding, there should never be a need to avoid a strike.
Extremely so. To confront a threat. Then deal with a commited attack by moving well forward if possible. Inside to the side of the opponent to deal a decisive action. When I say avoid I did not mean escape. Like a lot of older Budo decisive attacks contain avoiding movement. You cut him. He misses! There is only "one" Musashi technique. Sen no sen. It confronts an aggressive opponent and deals with him when he has commited himself to point of no return. Any and all movements are based on this detection. There are the holding down techniques you write of that occur when the opponent cuts but fails to cover the distance required to reach you. Quickly closing in holds down and crowds the opponent to force him back. Its all a very one sided right against the throat technique giving the opponent little choice where to go. Then deals with him beyond question. If all this stuff was head on, one person or both would go to hospital every time we practiced. Gendai Budo (Modern) offers this head on opportunity as we wear protection. Even In Batto-Jutsu I was taught that the only reason we cut makiwara is because a roll of straw does not offer a threat. Years ago one would cut and side-step in.
