he didnt really fight witht the two sword style from what I learned it was more of a traing way so he could use the katana one handed.
From what I read here: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Courtyard/1553/fhead.html He trained with 2 swords from a very early age (mentioned first on this page: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Courtyard/1553/musha.html) but didn't use it to fight with until later. On this page: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Courtyard/1553/duels.html it mentions the first recorded duel, against Miyake Gunbei, where Musashi used the Two Sword style he'd been developing for years (though he was using wooden swords). This happened some time between 1615 and 1627. He died in 1645. From there, it seems that he didn't do as much duelling, but was still in service as a samurai and so probably did fight more. Whether he used two swords after that or not, I don't know - but it does say that he continued to perfect his two sword method. To me, this implies that he did, in fact, fight with two swords and that, while it took him most of his life to reach a place where he felt competent to fight with two swords, it was his goal to do so from very early on. Of course, I don't know how accurate that page is but it jibes with other things I've read about Musashi. And in "Five Rings", Musashi talks at length about his strategies of combat and mentions many times the two sword method. Mike
Well it's above your post in bold font. I will write it again in a simpler way for you. He did not do a two sword style! Musashi's fundamentals are taught using one weapon..... this means? It's a "One sword style" Following this and not taught in the general dojo are...........two weapon techniques. They are the techniques that made him famous. Notwithstanding some other ryu have two sword technique Most importantly. An even higher level is with a shortsword. Then we can go on to study some bojutsu and a smattering of Jujitsu. Most people never get past the single sword. Sorry but my information does not come from webpages. I am dealing with simple facts. Regards
You seem to be getting all bent out of shape. I never claimed to know the truth of the matter. Not having studied it, I can only cull info about it from where I can. But you also seem to be nitpicking. You say: "Following this and not taught in the general dojo are...........two weapon techniques. They are the techniques that made him famous." OK - so Musashi did in fact use two swords and was famous for doing so (I thought that was the gist of his relevance to this particular thread) but the system he developed doesn't teach two swords in the general curriculum - but does later get there? So the style is, basically, a one sword style. Great. Doesn't invalidate the fact that Musashi used two swords and was famous for doing so - and is therefore relevant to this particular thread. Right? Edit: Oops - just went back and read the first post. I think I see what you're taking umbrage at. Maybe you weren't nitpicking as bad as I thought - but I think you may have misinterpreted the original post. I don't think Adam was specifically referring to the "Musashi style" in his statement. I think he was saying something more along the lines of, "Does anyone know how to fight with two swords, like Musashi was famous for doing?" But, please, start a new thread about the history of Musashi as you've learned it. I know I'd be interested in reading it. My only real exposure to Musashi has been a couple of translations of Go Rin No Sho. Mike
Spear and dagger is the quickest way to survive on the medieval reenactmentbattlefield, if your're a rookie, and if there is noone around with longbows... -both weapons are quick and provide several options and the spear's reach is backed with the even speedier dagger if an opponent manages to close in.
Anyway, an Italian dude I met at a WMA seminar in Dijon, France -claimed that japanese started using katana+wakisashi after loosing to many duels with portugise with rapier+dagger... On the swordforum, people sais this is just a rumor, but I want to post it here, just to provoke a little:Angel:
Going back to an earlier post - Miyamoto Musashi's style (Niten Ichi Ryu, sometimes known as the "Way of All Things") was to use ANYTHING. Swords, bows, sticks, hands, feet - it's a VERY diverse style, with actually surprisingly few forms & techniques. It's main principals aren't fixed, and unless you are a seasoned practitioner, you will look like a tít trying it. Think of it as the Jeet Kune Do of sword-arts. Not to get off the subject, or anything... ;O)
-Just an addition that I forgot while posting last time: A friend of mine claims that fighting with wakisashi + Katana was called fighting "barbarian style", and if that is true, it might support the rumor. I don't know what to think, and there might be several other peoples around the japanese that they regard as barbarians and that have had significatly more to do with the japanese than the Portugese...
Your right in a way. Yes, there is an adaptation to be able to use any weapon or hand to hand. But I would not have described my kenjutsu ryu as not having any principles. On the contrary you could find yourself studying the basic fundamentals of Ipponme (the first technique) for around ten years. Then in turn you could apply these principles to more than one or different weapons. Its the lack of understanding of nor being able to do complicated work with two weapons or even harder a short weapon that forces us to study basic fundamentals. As to barbarians..... Musashi said, we should learn the heart then learn the sword. We should if needed be able to take up arms in defence of our country and family and face our fatality. This philosophy was based on the use of the sword and looking at the advent of guns. He called it "Seishin Chokudo". To take an honest straight path in life. Now if a few more barbarians followed this ideal maybe the world would not be in the mess its in now.
Ah, I understand that (I study the style myself). I never said that there were NO principles, just that they're not as (for want of a better word) rigid as most MAs. Just for the record, we're agreeing with each other on this one, Hyaku
But its extremly rigid and very unforgiving and very fixed. It determines and deals decisively with a threatening situation. Practice is severe allowing little room for error and mistakes severely reprimanded if repeated more than once. The only possible way of learning anything other than single sword waza is by private tuition from the Soke. In Japanese we use the word Mongai fushutsu, meaning not to be taught outside. When Musashi mentioned that one should research various ways. What he meant was not to actually do them all but to take note of what other people do. Gorin no Sho is a manual. When one actualy practices with the ryu one learns to be able distinguish the finer points of what he mentions and seperate them from he says you should research. Without doubt other sword schools can possibly identify with certain aspects of his philosophy. But it would be rather difficult to follow it in its entirety. You say you study the style yourself? Forgive me for saying so but there are only sixteen of us listed with the Nihon Kobudo Renmei at the Nippon Budokan and I cant recall seeing you on it.
Two sword style The way I remember it Musashi worded it something like this, (WHEN USING THE KATANA FIGHT AS IF YOU WERE USING TWO SWORDS). I don't know if he actualy used a two sword style or not (many drawings depict this) but I believe based on personnel experience with swords and sticks, Musahi may have been refering to the live hand. The live hand is the hand that is free when you wield a weapon using only one hand and you use the other (free hand) for checking and blocking or punching. If this is the case it seems to me that maybe Musashi prefered to use the large swowd using only one hand and using the free hand to disrupt an apponents inside range attacks. From personal experiance I find this is very effective. One thing is for sure. The mystery goes on!
Do you have a copy of the Book of Five Rings by any chance? He says that by holding two swords, you learn to use the sword one handed. And in a different section, he goes on to explain how a warrior should never use only one sword when he has both available because this is not taking full advantage of your resources. (paraphrased not nearly as elegantly i assure you) He doesn't need to refer to the live hand simply because he has an entire section in the book about the way to grip a sword. This is just my understanding of it... i'm open to new interpretations. I'm not entirely sure, and I mean no offense whatsoever, but was not Musashi himself self-taught? And for those of us who don't live in Japan and have an opportunity to train as you do, have we any less of a right to teach ourselves this art? Does that go to say that since we do not formally practice it, we cannot be considered as truly practicing it?
Sphyerion said: I'm not entirely sure, and I mean no offense whatsoever, but was not Musashi himself self-taught? And for those of us who don't live in Japan and have an opportunity to train as you do, have we any less of a right to teach ourselves this art? Does that go to say that since we do not formally practice it, we cannot be considered as truly practicing it? ......... No you are not "truely practicing it" Initially self taught or not it constitutes over 400 years of practice by other people to have become one of Japans most famous forms of Kenjutsu. You make it all sound so easy. Unless you have suddenly aquired some form of telepathy I dont see how this is possible. If it was possible the whole world would experts in no time and that would be nice. Can you apply this self taught principle to Karate, Iaido Kendo or for tha matter any Martial "Art" Please dont get me wrong. I was not criticising anyone. The opportunity I have to practice is simply because I made it my life and made the effort. I was just trying to make a relevant contribution to a thread about something I have a reasonable knowledge of. As I touched on earlier on in the thread The fundamentals are with the right hand. I did this for seven years and still do it for at least half of practice time. The longer the better as it makes the understanding of Okuden a lot easier Okuden (Hidden transmission) is first with two swords, then kodachi, bo, Jujitsu and jutte. So fundamentals are with one. Nito is with one (in each hand) Kodachi is one, Bo with two and Jutte one. The grip we use is very different. I would not even begin to attempt to describe it in writing. To me doing this as self taught worries me more than someone who says they do self taught iaido, batto jutsu. We do pair work with no protection. Its avoid cuts that stop a centimetre from the floor or go to hospital. Mess around with this and someone will get hurt. It really is a unique situation to take in for all concerned. In other martial arts we see it, do it. Then maybe get a book a video etc to help. Here we actually have manual that has actually preceded the practice! We are making efforts to remedy this. But it takes time and money for all concerned. Canadian seminar is set for the first week in August. A phone call an hour ago tells me we might be coming to France around October. I really do hope to meet people who show such great interest sometime in the future and try and help them understand Musashi's tradition.
I know that in Hung Gar and Northern Shaolin there are several forms for double broadswords and straight swords (gim), butterfly knives while technically not considered swords by the Chinese, could very easily be seen as a pair of short swords by most other people.
Ok, holding and using two weapons depend of their weight. That style has good speed. Althought is not well reckoned because the power.
Explain this. Are you saying that while it might faster to fight with two weapons it doesn't hit as hard as using one weapon?
