this modification on a technique is not one that i see people do and i wonder why because it greatly enhances the control and power you can generate. maybe it has something to do with the idea of, "well it's not in the syllabus, so let's not teach it..." okay: the easiest illustration is from kote gaeshi. after using the wristlock to put uke on his back the convetional technique is to grab the crook of the elbow and roll uke over onto his stomach. i have noticed that beginners often have problems turning over a non-compliant uke, hell if they're very strong it's pretty hard for anybody. here is a simple modification that i guarantee will roll uke over no matter how strong they are. rather than grabbing at the elbow reach back under and grab your own wrist, in other words, a standing key lock. this gives you a more stable fulcrum and much more control of uke's arm. use the same footwork and continue with the technique. try it and tell me how it works
Here's a much easier method, once you have your uke on his back, stamp on his face, he'll roll over [before] I promise. Lets not forget that Kote Gaeshi will result in the severe injury to the receiver if they don't know it's coming or are unable to counter it thus, the arm your attempting to use as the pivot will most likely be dislocated or broken (at the wrist at least if not the elbow as well) so, using this arm will be completely ineffective in turning someone over. Lets also not forget that the dynamics of this technique will quite likely have the reciever falling to the ground either backwards or sidewards at speed, it is likely that they will connect with the floor quite hard with a part of their head, additionally this may proberbly result in unconsciousness or a very bad case of concussion, either way they aren't going to be struggling much however, if they do, remind them who's in charge of the situation. Dave
well, that is pretty speculative but i am trying to illustrate a means of control whereby you can *minimize* damage and protect yourself more efficiently and i seriously doubt you could break someone's elbow with kotegaeshi in a serious fight
When he is 'thrown' with kote he should have no balance. If you are connected to him, you are still his balance when he lands, the turnover is free.
I could see Kote Gaeshi could cause a great deal of damage. In my experience most people apply Kote Gaeshi with a twisting as well as a down-ward motion. If applied with enough power that could cause not only multiple fractures in the forearm but spiral fractures, not to mention tendon and ligament damage in the wrist and elbow. Which all requires several operations to repair. Where I practice when applying Kote Gaeshi we use the downward motion only. If we want uke to get the over-the-top ukemi we turn our hips keeping ukes arm in line with our center. If uke can't keep up or resists there won't be as much damage and you will still be in control. If we want to turn uke onto their front we either catch them on the bounce or we place ukes arm at a 45 degree angle across the face. The elbow should line up with the nose. We then step so that we follow the line of ukes arm while still holding the arm. If done properly this normally works. If it doesn't try Daves suggestion.
Can I ask how long you've been studying Aikido ? 1. I've seen with my own eyes a subluxated (dislocated and self-relocated) elbow from Kote geashi. (resulting from an uke who didn't respond appropriately to the dynamic nature of the technique) 2. To see the true response to this technique, all one has to do is practice it on a newcomer to the discipline (done carefully of course) the body position and direction is exactly what would happen if done in the street, pressure is placed upon the wrist, from the wrist into the elbow which is bent, if the subject resists (as is expected) the wrist will go first, and the elbow thereafter. There won't be any dynamic breakfall, the subject will simply loose their balance as a result of the interaction, the technique directs control and offers the probability of injury. I know I digress here but I think this opens up an ideal opportunity to discuss the ideology of Aikido and its techniques IE A method of conflict resolution through [Harmony] Yet most if not all of the techniques within aikido are / were designed to create a desired effect [injury] Even if the intent was to immobilise, one cannot pre-empt a situation that otherwise necessitates a greater degree of application which ultimately leads to injury. Whilst I do accept the aikidoist has a [choice] to apply a technique in such a way as it does/does not injure someone, personally I feel this is purely an 'ideological' perspective which, whilst noble in principle is extremely difficult to put into practice when faced with a situation where you are in real danger of injury yourself. One has to remember what the founder wanted from his aiki at differing stages of his life, pre WWII it was nothing more than a martial practice, a method of making war, Post WWII the practice of aiki -do was for the unification of mankind. The ideological aspect of conflict resolution through harmony only fits the post WWII era. I've studied Aikido since 1988 and a Yudansha, I don't mind saying here, that although I have a degree of skill that befits my grade, I would not claim that I could apply those skills under the [ideological] principles that many see as the correct way to 'do' aikido. In fact I don’t entirely agree with that train of thought. I've spent many hours over the years debating the [practicalities] of aikido, so much so that I now can't be bothered with that debate anymore. However, to further this thread, I will say that I feel that practicality lay firmly in the minds of the student (or not as the case may be) Do we study aikido as a means of conflict resolution, learning to fight so we don't have to ? Or, do we learn aikido as a means of practicality? Or a combination of both? Regards Dave
That is EXACTLY what it is... The [throw - ukemi] is a dojo application and does not exist in 'the street'. (god I hate that expression)
And who would be able to do this unless they know how to make ukemi ? No one is intentionally going to 'throw' themselves regardless of the "path" of a technique, unless its being performed between aikidoists In the context of receiving a [dojo] technique ukemi is nothing more than a means of allowing Tori to execute a technique with spirit and, enabling Uke to survive without injury. Ukemi does not exist outside of the dojo [in a modern post feudal era] likewise, the gracefulness of aikido seen in a dojo does not exist. The technique seen in the typical Segal films where a technique is performed and the receiver does a huge breakfall is a myth, it will not happen. What will happen is that an aikidoist will 'do' his technique, the receiver will have no comprehension of where or what is happening to them and, thusly no idea how to counter or survive (through ukemi) a technique being applied. The general result will be a 'fall' to the floor and an injury to a limb, neck or back. If we look at aikido technique in general, here are the main areas of the body that Aikido specifically targets. 1. The wrists - Through direct technique and immobilisation 2. The elbow - Through direct technique and immobilisation 3. The shoulder - Through direct technique and immobilisation 4. The neck - Through direct technique (5. any major joint including in the legs) Additionally other areas of the body may be injured indirectly from an abrupt introduction to the floor or, through atemi waza. Head/face, Chest, Back legs Fingers I've lost my train of thought due to being hung over from last night
Aikinoob, I think the standing keylock is a great principle to add to the practice of aikido. Nice idea. For judoka, this is a variation on the kimura.
holy crap, i don't even know where to start. i have been in aikido @ 3 years. i have the good fortune to be one of around 10 people in my dojo, 2 of which are black belts. (usaf, btw) i'm not trying to debate the practility of aikido, i believe it works if trained properly otherwise i wouldn't spend my time and money on it. i used kotegaeshi as an illustrational tool only, i realize that it is *intended to break the wrist*. change the technique to an irimi, and you could still apply what i am describing. anytime uke is on his back and you have a modicum of control you can go for this lock and effectively control him. "If we want to turn uke onto their front we either catch them on the bounce or we place ukes arm at a 45 degree angle across the face. The elbow should line up with the nose. We then step so that we follow the line of ukes arm while still holding the arm. If done properly this normally works. If it doesn't try Daves suggestion."--aikiwolfe this is what led to my implementation of the technique. have your uke reach up with his other arm and try to stop you from rolling him over, i'll bet you'll be surprised how many times he can stop you by simply grabbing his own arm. a standing keylock will take this away from him as it greatly increases the amount of torque you can apply. i'm sure Dave can make any technique work that he want's but that's not a fair standard for the majority of us to compare to and not the point i am trying to make. at the very least, try this a few times then either trash it or don't. i believe it's a useful tool and i have tried it numerous times with great success.
You have a point. But I made my remark in the context that the perosn experiencing the technique knows its various counters. Which is basically why kote gaeshi becomes a throw, right? It can happen if the one applying such techniques knows enough to not harm the other guy too much. Unfortunately, ideal situations like this rarely arise in an environment of much spontaniety. Yes. If the other guy does not know anything this is what will probably happen.
Well if you stand around and let your uke compose him/her self or if uke knows what's going on then I suppose they could. However the technique is supposed to be continuouse. Uke shouldn't have time to put their other arm up to grab the arm you already have. I would also argue that uke would probably risk further injuary by doing so. So far as trashing your techniques goes I don't think anybody actually did that.
I've been shown the 'turn over' finish and the finish where after you throw you pull up on Ukes wrist to show control, this will also prevent him from getting up if he is so inclined. The step right, left, going into a right stance, paralelle with Ukes body. As you sink down into right stance lock his elbow with your right knee, twist his wrist to your left and push down on it. I like the second method better.
Ukemi isn't a 'counter'. Its a number of methods created for safety and to allow for full blooded practice of techniques without requiring a new partner every attempt. I'll counter you by falling over I find a straight punch in the face (or atemi ) to be an effective counter. Col
I disagree, ukemi can very much be a counter, if you look at it as the action you willingly take to put yourself in a more advantageous position. For instance, a lot of people practice irimi nage as a throw where nage is unbalanced and thrown down. We practice the ukemi as a choice that uke makes because nage is in a position to break uke's neck. In that context, and in others (rolling out of an ikkyo, etc.), ukemi is the counter uke does to the main technique attempted by nage.
I see where you're coming from Budd however I still wouldn't count ukemi as being a counter. We have to remember nage allows uke to make a ukemi to avoide injuary. If uke attempts to make a ukemi at the wrong moment or trys a ukemi that nage wasn't expecting, it can go wrong in a very bad way.
Your post and mine illustrates the difference between practicing aikido in a cooperative versus combative manner. At appropriate training levels, ukemi is made at the "right moment" by uke as a conscious choice, to counter and/or receive the technique brought by nage/tori, nage/tori then turns the counter(s) back in to their favor through either a pin, finishing move and/or submission. All of these things exist within the practice. If you want to get the most martial applicability out of your art, then you need to be aware of them. If nage is always "allowing" uke to make the ukemi, then either your uke is "allowing" you to perform the technique (which is one reason sadistic practitioners are able to seriously injure others, because they're "allowed" to) or there's a built in assumption that nage is so skilled that they have total control over uke at all times, regardless of what uke might possibly be able to do as a defense. These situations are the ideal, but definitely not the usual, especially in practice involving skilled martial artists.
