Training with the ill intentioned

Discussion in 'Competitors Corner' started by Mangosteen, Aug 21, 2020.

  1. IronMaiden1991

    IronMaiden1991 Active Member

    I'm so sorry you're going through this. The UK is a very strange place for all sorts of bigotry, and I do feel we're getting worse in some ways. While I'm not a racial minority, I'm a gender and sexual minority and I have to listen to idiots talk about people like me in ways that make my skin crawl frankly.

    If you ever need to vent, my inbox is open.

    I'm grateful I don't know many genuinely racist people.
    Mangosteen likes this.
  2. IronMaiden1991

    IronMaiden1991 Active Member

    I'm so sorry you're going through this. The UK is a very strange place for all sorts of bigotry, and I do feel we're getting worse in some ways. While I'm not a racial minority, I'm a gender and sexual minority and I have to listen to idiots talk about people like me in ways that make my skin crawl frankly.

    If you ever need to vent, my inbox is open.

    I'm grateful I don't know many genuinely racist people.
  3. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    I'm not even sure who in the police i should contact or if i really want to rile this guy up.
    Any sign posting to who to contact in authorities would be great as im more concerned for myu fiance than myself.
    Most of his expansion has been in the past few months with covid and he's taken a "ati corruption" deep state, sovreign citizen, plandemic and anti-eu narrative so those things have seem to have got people on board.
    I know from my own experience that personal financial difficulties really mess with your head so im sure hes attracted most of these new people due to the econmic downturn and COVID.

    I think the reason the Uni club annoys me as it's the only place i have some control over things and jiu jitsu has always been a safe place where i've been treated equally based on my skill level and not my ethnicity etc which isnt the case in the rest of my life in this small hick town.

    Also @MODs, apologies for posting this in competition corner, i accidentally started this thread in the wrong subforum.
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  4. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    It seems that every martial arts person in my area has been sucked into some conspiracy crap - either BLM or muslims or the deep state is trying to overthrow the government with some plandemic or a victimisation narrative. its nuts.

    i dont think evidence works on these people.
    As David said, racism seems to have shifted to "race science" again but i'm well informed on that area, i spent my undergrad looking at ethnicity and health because its so unstudied. But the racists shift to "well its a cultural and european cultures are just superior" if you debunk them. they are happy ignoring the long history of golden ages globally that were spurred by innovations which travelled along the silk road or popped up independently in the americans and austrailia when europe was still a back water.
    (if anyone is interested, i recommend the books:
    - "Prisoners of Geography" by tim marshall for the affects of geography on the economics and relationships of people, places and culture
    - "Humankind" by alexander harcourt to understand biology and the idea of race the diversity of cultures and how race is all nonsense
    - "Superior" by Angela Siani to understand the scientific histaory, construction and narrative of racial science and its influence in modern scientific thought and how it continues in medicine and other instituions (the gold standard of science is not the double blind study but the Swedish Twin Double Blind Study).
    - "See White" (a podcast) about how the construction of whiteness was created to grant legal protections to some and not others and basically to break up the working class from uniting.)

    Frankly the right wing guys are as bad as the far left ones, i despise extremism in all forms.
    I was involved in oprganising some BLM stuff and was the only minority person involved (it was being run by a far left group in my town), as i tried to get more minorities in the local area involved, i was told that black people werent needed for this movement and that this far left group believed that racism is just a manifestation of the class struggle and didnt really exist. it became apparent that the BLM stuff in my town was being used by these far left guys to push their own agenda so i ended up gathering all the minorities separately and doing our own thing.
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  5. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    I think a call to 101 or a web chat would be worthwhile, if nothing else it may put this loon on the radar

    I’ve never really understood how someone can practice martial arts and remain racist , I mean , most of us dress in a way that harks back to ancient (?) civilisation , use a foreign language and mimic foreign customs , though I suppose many racists still enjoy a “good ruby”
    Mitch, Dead_pool and David Harrison like this.
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    It's a lot easier for us to engage people with reason and logic, because we are not in their "out group".

    Just like if I tried to engage a Black Hebrew Israelite with reason and logic; it wouldn't work because anything I said would be dismissed.

    The only cure for racism I know of is exposure. Skinheads and rastas finding themselves in the same clubs and creating ska as a result is the most famous example I can think of, but working together, training together... any shared experience where you cannot deny the humanity of the other. It's by no means guaranteed to work, but it's the only way I know of that can.
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    It's really unfortunate that a minority of the far left won't acknowledge the need to confront racism (when the revolution comes it won't matter I guess?). The other side of the coin is just as unfortunate: others on the left who accuse anyone who wants to highlight common socioeconomic problems of class reductionism and want them deplatformed... including black people.

    The mental sleight of hand and pseudoscience coming from the right these days is so insidious and worryingly effective. It's really depressing and feels like we've regressed 50 years as a society in the last 15 years.

    PS. Thanks for the book recommendations.
  8. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Soapbox activated.

    Japan is has a terrible history of racism, so does Korea and China. Neo Nazis and Klansmen love uniforms, tags, badges, etc. They love the bling of superiority. So I don't think it's surprising a violent racist would appropriate things from old arts like Karate. These are people who believe the rest of the world is their oyster. They are out to dominate all other races, and that means taking what's theirs.

    The trouble with them online is that there are really two kinds of racial extremist online, the real identities like this guy, and people who are openly invidious. But there's also a big mass of secret squirrel types, using anonymity as a weapon to ruin lives, making racist memes in an attempt to normalize hate against minorities and their political movements. That hidden group is way more dangerous specifically because they have the shadows of the web to hide behind. They can be argued with, countered, but all the logic and reason in the world isn't going to stop them and they will stay hidden away. So to expose them you have to expose their online message so REAL people can see the hate, even if it's hidden behind racist humor, most people will recognize and reject it.

    Like Satre said, they don't need to worry about what they say, you do and they know it and will use it against you. So watch what you say, don't play by their rules. Don't get angry, get honest. If someone is acting vile and inhumane, just plainly say so. Anger, hate, frustration, fear are all their tools, so when you fight fire with their fire, the only outcome is flame.
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2020
    David Harrison likes this.
  9. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

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  10. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    So sad, isn't it? Having to report someone for something? There's no such thing as a ban for a bullet.

    Edit: photo removed. Mitch
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 25, 2020
  11. Unreal Combat

    Unreal Combat Valued Member

    Why do you only ask white UK MAP'pers? I could tell you from first hand experience of having experienced racism in the UK and other countries, due to being mixed ethnicity, that there's plenty of people out there from other ethnic groups that don't challenge racism.

    The colour of someones skin has no bearing on their willingness to stand up against racism.
  12. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Absolutely, I agree. The only place I experienced systemic racism and wide spread open hostile racism was in Hong Kong, not the UK.
    However my current scenario is due to white supremacists who don't value you me enough as a person that would respect any evidence if I talked to them. We need people in their "in-group" (in this case, white people in the UK) to dissuade them from this. Hence the burden is on white people.

    Don't worry I have regular conversations with my anti -black family and friends about their beliefs and I've been able to shift a few of their opinions.
    We all need to pitch in against racism within our communities :)
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  13. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Also apologies if I haven't made it explicitly clear @Unreal Combat, in my family, there is little anti-white racism although there is a lot of classism. (Not to say that anti-white sentiment doesn't exist, it's just not expressed in front of me).

    But anti-black racism is a big problem in my family (with classist undertones too). enough of a problem that my 50-something year old mother is hiding a relationship with a black Caribbean guy (that shes known since they were in primary school together) from my grandparents. Ridiculous but the most I can do is support that relationship and push my grandparents through conversation, it's worked to get my grandfather to just be happy for his daughter but I know it's a difficult thing with my grandmother.
    We all have to keep trying.
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  14. master x

    master x New Member

    He might be going through a phase. I had racist thoughts in the past. Kindness and compassion is the cure.
  15. IronMaiden1991

    IronMaiden1991 Active Member

    I hope that doesn't equate to not challenging the racist
  16. master x

    master x New Member

    I think it depends on what kind of challenge. Usually racism is a defense mechanism more so than raw hate. The ethnicity that I come from has had many members who acted pretty badly. People on the outside see that as danger and in spirit of protection, they tend to be more cold or unfriendly.

    But if you go out and be the example that is oozing with kindness, charisma and compassion, they will see that not all members of a culture or color behave badly. Sometimes words are not enough, our action has to be the act of communication and education that makes true change in fabric of society.
  17. IronMaiden1991

    IronMaiden1991 Active Member

    I have seldom read such utterly ignorance at the idea people's prejudices are 'defensive' or that being nice to bigots turns them around... I say this as a minority myself. People with ill intentions are seldom made to evaluate their beliefs by kindly allowing them to go about their business as usual.

    Attached Files:

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  18. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    I'll step in this for just a second, but important point of order is that prejudice and bigotry are two different things.

    Prejudice is pre-judging. If you think someone is shady because they are a minority, that's prejudice. Prejudice is usually learned and can be undone with learning, usually by actually loving and being with the people you're afraid of.

    Bigotry is immutability, someone who refuses to change their opinions and emotional responses to things they have a strong opinion about.

    Bigots often have many prejudices, but not everyone with prejudices is a bigot. Nazis, the whole religious assault on women, alternative lifestyles, etc, that is true bigotry. Not quite on the same level as purse clutching and looking oddly at people with blue hair, if you get my gist.

    Archie Bunker, the most famous TV "bigot", really wasn't, because he transformed over time. Love wins in the end.
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2022
  19. master x

    master x New Member

    The only ignorance emanating is your post. Go look up Darryl Davis and how amazing he is in changing racist beliefs. I am not saying they are all defensive but that is definitely part of it and it is undeniable.

    Don't act like being a minority is a virtue. I grew up in a middle eastern country and saw tons of racism as well. Racism and bad behavior can come from any side. It can be an off putting behavior from a certain culture that people do not like or like to associate with and it can be misinterpreted as racism.
  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Just a point, in the middle East, being middle Eastern isn't being a minority, it's literally being the majority.

    There a certain amount of intolerance that is tolerated in society (this differs country to country, social class to social class, group to group), the real discussion is at what point should this intolerance be not tolerated anymore.

    There's plenty of random jokes about polish 10% rolling, flat earthers flying visiting Australia, the French having amazing lunches so being sleepy for training etc where I train, whilst that can be a little rough on the ego, that's a level of intolerance that is ok, but when we people start saying "insert minority" group, shouldn't be allowed to train/should be shot etc that would be where that needs to not be tolerated anymore.

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