Wow. That is a crazy amount to digest. Glad to see this thread is still getting traffic and the issues are still being addressed from all sides. A big thanks for taking the time to post JeffG. cheers, Slipthejab
My pleasure, STJ. Tony has taken a lot of grief from people eager to turn themselves into catch wrestling martyrs -- monks, almost, in service of their art -- when what they really are are either base opportunists or, in steve's case, entirely misinformed. And that's a shame, because Cecchine is, as Blackbelt Mag noted in 2006, one of the toughest men alive. Trust me on this. He is the absolute real deal, and he knows hooking very, very well. Something I wouldn't say if I didn't truly believe it. Best, JeffG
JeffG: Thank you for your contribution and the issues you raise with this discussion in this thread. It seems that you are more well acquainted with Mr. Cecchine - I hope that means you can address a question I believe I brought up earlier but was never satisfatorily answered. Cecchine claims that catch is not better or worse than jiu-jitsu and judo and such, just different (according to his website). Cool, I think we can agree that they seem to have different purposes and so on. But if they are on equal footing, why do we not see Cecchine-trained competitors in major submission grappling tournaments like NAGA or GQ? Do I perhaps just not know of any? Or even the ADCC? The issue of the BJJ-like point system is often brought up as a reason why pure American catch guys don't appear in ADCC, but: Matt Hume, a catch-influenced pankration fighter, was one of the founders of ADCC and probably due to him the first ten minutes of a ADCC match are unscored, with only a submission counting for anything which would apparently give an advantage to catch vs. BJJ. I am aware of there being some small presence by Japanese shootfighters like Gomi, but I am also aware that they are both not considered pure catch and do not go far in these competitions. I would love to finally lay this issue to rest if you have information to share.
Hi, Atharel. Glad to answer. Two of Cecchine's students just participated in and won NAGA Ohio a few months ago (one of whom, Brian Klaus, is the only guy outside Chicago Tony has to date certified in catch). Another finished second in the Arnold classic. And of course, Tony trained Shonie Carter for the Matt Serra fight, and has trained a number of other guys who have fought in MMA. Just not as a primary coach, given that he's located in Chicago and most of them were not. Tony had an serious health issue in 1993 (that left him paralyzed on his right side for close to two years), and then in 2002 he had another more serious problem. Because of that, he would NEVER be sanctioned to compete in anything like the UFC, though he did, in 1996, make an audition tape. I know, because I've seen it. But the thing you have to understand is, those competitors I mention above aside (and there have been others), what Tony teaches is a system that uses rips and other tools that don't go over well in sporting events. Now, this isn't to say that catch can't be adapted to sport. Just that Tony teaches it as a NHB type system. If you're only truly familiar with Cecchine through LAOH, you wouldn't know that a lot of what he does involves standup fighting and striking -- and so a lot of his students are interested in what he teaches from the perspective of self defense or street fighting. But what also never gets talked about is that Chicago is really not big into MMA (I think it was illegal there for a while; not sure if that is still the case), and so there really aren't that many locals interested enough to train for MMA. Besides, catch takes a long time to learn -- and he is one of the few people around truly competent enough to teach it -- which means that those who want to learn it would have to spend a lot of time in Chicago (and for many people, that's just not feasible). Another guy, though, just won some gi tourny in Hawaii after having done nothing but watch Tony's tapes and practice with his buddies in the garage. He had never worn a jacket, and he beat a bunch of Gracie jiu jitsu guys. Take that for what it's worth.
Good call. I was gonna make a call on this, but Rubberband is simply hitting it all out of the ballpark. I get criticized a lot by BJJ guys, but it doesn’t seem to make my effectiveness any less…well, effective. To be honest, nowadays I’m not sure WHERE I get my influences from anymore, but through so much tape studying, it’s definitely the elements of Catch. Probably also due to the idea that Catch and Chin Na share so many of the same theories, adapting didn't take too long. Which Kempo knows from exp. with me, I tend to scramble a lot, cause a great deal of pain, use a lot of cranks that all either lead to submissions or are submissions themselves. Head scissors tend to work fairly well for control w/ me also, especially leading up to toe-holds and shin crushes. I fully understand the frustration w/ the BJJ tourneys. But, personally I feel that adapting BJJ methods and switching to Catch in certain situations helps the most. That may come from being able to spar w/ a lot of BJJ guys to remedy this.
