Hi, I received an email linking to a certification program with Tony Cecchine in Catch as Catch can. All on video with a few other perks and incentives. Hopefully there are enough folks in this forum with enough knowledge of this type of grappling that could tell me, asap, if this is on the level, or worth the money. I dont have the money to be wasting it. Regards, Gord
I have many of Cecchine's products, and so far have liked what I've gotten. However, as I have recieved the same e-mail as you, I can say that I personally wouldn't spend that kind of money on it. It basically says, "You pay up front and there's no timeline of when, or even if, we'll ever actually certify you". Just gave me bad vibes. Online cert programs are always a little questionable as is. Overall, it just doesn't look to me like the risk outweighs the reward. That's my oppinion, take it for what it's worth!
I have quite a bit of Cecchine's stuff and I think his catch wrestling is tops. I think much of what works about his stuff is the clear and concise way he shows it. It'd be great to be able to train one on one with a guy like that... though dunno if my joints would ever be the same again. That being said... online certs always seemed to me a silly thing to me. Though now I feel left out because I didn't get the e-mail.
cecchine Hi, dont feel bad slip. its a newsletter that doesnt come out that regularly. I now have two kids and would like to continue training. The problem is time and distance and funds. Im wanting to do some distance stuff so I can call up my buddy and do the work in the basement of my house or his house. That way, we both have happy wives and we get to see the kids. One other guy, whos stuff I really like, is Mark Hatmaker. I have three of his books and saw a video of his detailing some boxing drills. The boxing stuff was good, but the grappling stuff was great! Ever heard of this guy? I might go with his stuff instead. Gord
Gord, I'm fortunate enough to train with Mark about once a month. To me, he's an excellent teacher and technician. The guy's in amazing shape, and is a scientist when it comes to MA. Can't recomend him enough. He's also got a coaching program, the cost of which is about $110, and that includes about 15% off products you buy from him. Go to the "Training" part of his website and check it out. Like I said, I've enjoyed everything I've gotten from Tony C., and will probably buy more of his products in the future, but unless you're trying to open a school that offers "Tony Cecchine's Catch Wrestling", and feel the need to prove you're certified to teach it, I just don't think the cost outweighs the risks. Just my oppinion, though.
distance Hi, Yeah, I had some time to think about it and once the glamorizing wears out, it doesnt seem like a great idea. I might have the opportunity to check out Mr. Cecchine one of these years, if we can make it to Chicago to visit my sister in law. In regards to opening a school, I would probably tick off more people rather than attract clients. I checked out a grappling video rating website and found that cecchine's stuff is ranked second to mario sperry. He's in good company! hope to buy some of his stuff in the near future. Gord
I might just re-open this thread. Does anyone have any further info on Cecchine's reputation - is he legit? The reason is I've heard a few rumours that he hasn't ever really competed (not necessarily a bad thing - good instructors sometimes don't care about competition - but in the grappling arts its a bit odd), and that he occassionally plagarises (especially on his instructionals). I'm not sure if its true or not. I've only seen limited ammounts of his instructionals and liked some of what I saw. But then I saw this: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHQxqfPz-Cg"]YouTube[/ame]
There's a link on scientificwrestling.com, a site run by Jake Shannon, where he talks about both Cecchine and Matt Fury. My mouse is broken, so I won't even attempt to link it since it would probably take the rest of the day, but if I remember, the summary basically amounted to this: Cecchine's claims can't be supported by existing old-time wrestlers; Shannon thinks that Cecchine scammed Lou Thesz into associating with him; Furey has competed in collegiate wrestling and Shuai Jiao, giving him at least more athetic credibility than Cecchine, who's never competed; Cecchine claimed to be a golden-gloves boxer, a claim Shannon has found no evidence for In further discussion, I think maybe on his web site, Shannon does give credit to Cecchine for this ground control and leglock taped being legit, though I believe the feeling was that he stole this info from tapes of Japanese wrestlers like Fujiwara, showing their catch/shooto stuff. The link above shows some very bad stuff, especially that falling far arm bar that he turned into a wristlock or whatever. Looks different from his "Lost Art of Hooking" tapes, which seem cleaner and more efficient. I still like the LAOH tapes, and some of the stuff that he's produced afterwords, while not really all that useful, isn't the worst stuff I've seen. Of course, I also own a lot of old Panther Productions tapes...
Discussions of catch wrestling always tend to go to questioning the legitamacy of everyone involved in the art. I hate seeing this because if cheapens the art and fuels the detractors. I studied catch wrestling under Billy Wicks since 1999 and am a certified instructor in his lineage. I got certified by getting beaten up less and less over time until I stopped getting beaten up... through hard direct work with Billy Wicks standing over my shoulder rolling his eyes and shaking his head... I have seen most of the videos on catch wrestling floating around and most leave out the most important aspects of the art... videos only show the submissions and most often show them without the correct leverage or add in fluff techniques... catch wrestling is a form of wrestling that is not like free style or greco roman... it is its own thing.... you can not learn catch from video... it requires direct instruction... I am glad there is an interest in the art but for the most part it is a lost art and the smoke screen of video productions professing the truth only make the true art more lost. I can vouch that Tony Checcine did train with Billy Wicks over one or two weekends and picked up his key lock stuff from Billy Wicks... instructors I can recommend from direct involvement with them: In Asheville, North Carolina: Johnny Huskey, Chris Rogers, Mike McDevitt, James Cannariato In Easley, South Carolina: John/Wesley Strickland Hermosa Beach, California: Richard "Army" Maguire and I live and teach in Kansas City/Olathe, Kansas take care, steve
Do you believe that Cecchine learned enough in two weekends to be able to teach it and charge for teaching it? Did you ever train with him - if so, how would you rate his skills?
I try very hard not to inflame the inner turmoil that is the catch as catch can community... I distance myself from it because of the shameful behavior of those who claim to understand something based purely on a list of catch submissions they learned at a seminar or off of a video.... I think the behavior of those who sale the art of catch wrestling for their personal gain is even more shameful... these individuals have redefined for the modern world what catch as catch can is based on partial understanding... many seem to think that legitimate catch wrestling is a vague cross between wrestling and Bjj/judo or simply a endless list of free form submissions with no underlying principle or strategy... neither is true. please understand that I am not trying to promote myself here... I just have the unique perspective of having been personally trained by one of few real catch wrestlers left in the world. the things being taught in the mass media world are often filled with fluff or simply leave out the underlying principle... the thing is, the old timers don't want to waste their art on people who only want to gratify their own ego and pad their wallet. to answer the questions at hand... Do I think Tony C learned what Billy Wicks taught him during their time together... well I do know that Tony C video taped the training so he could certainly review it later... so in terms of physical skills, he probably did pick them up... I know that Billy Wicks taught him keylock short arm scissors and associated techniques during their time together... I also remember Billy Wicks felt like no one at Tony C's wanted to listen to him so much of what he taught fell on deaf ears. I can tell you from first hand experience that Billy Wicks will teach you a lot of stuff right from the start but will only teach you the underlying secrets after you prove yourself and show him that you repect him and the art. which brings me to my greatest point... those who sale catch wrestling do not understand it because they don't respect it and were in such a hurry to profit from it that their teachers figured them out and stopped teaching them... I have never trained with or wrestled Tony C... I have only seen him on video and heard the opinion of those who have trained with him before coming to see me... in terms of rating him... I am not that arrogant and refuse to stoop to the level of those who soil my beloved art by placing themselves in positions to judge others... In my opinoin real catch wrestling is as lost as it has ever been... catch wrestling is more than submissions and tough talk on message boards... as for charging for learning catch wrestling... Billy Wicks never charged me one cent for the art... and I have never charged one cent to those who have proven themselves to me and wanted to learn it for the right reasons... you have to have an introduction and have a good reputation before I will teach you... Why? Because this is the only way to save a dying art... the empty drum makes the most noise... take care, steve
Thank you very much for you in-depth reply. That was much more of an answer than I hoped for. On a more light-hearted note, what is your impression of Japanese-style catch or shootwrestling? Is that relatively true to Wicks's style of catch, or are there noticeable other influences? Just curious, as I've always wondered whether CACC had truly caught hold in Japan but not the US.
interesting responses to this thread. I figured it would be a page long of just bashing the guy. I forget where, but I recall reading about how Cecchine is a fraud at worst and a wannabe at best. Guess I'll have to check the torrents and see if I can get a taste of what he's about, because until this point I gotta admit I kinda wrote off catch-wrestling as under-developed BJJ mixed with wrestling.
Kempo fist, Yeah check out the catch wrestling stuff. It's got a real different flavor than BJJ that's for sure. It's something like what Sambo is in relation to BJJ. Even more different than that maybe. Lots of subs you never see in BJJ used in catch... a different approach overall I'd say. There is a whole lot out there on the whole issue of Cecchine and his history and credibility etc. There was a bunch of issues in regards to him and Karl Gotch. Cecchine has been pretty much thrown into the same lot as guys like Matt Fury. Here's a read: here's scans of the actual letters form Karl Gotch: http://img103.imageshack.us/my.php?image=karl1rs1.jpg http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/4847/93eiy3.jpg The source for the article and the scans is: Scientific Wrestling Probably one of the better sources of info and history out there for many forms of wrestling, grappling and training including catch wrestling. The legendary catch wrestler Karl Gotch comes off as a gentleman in everyway and doesn't mince words about what he thinks about Cecchine. If anyone has the credentials to call BS... Karl Gotch would be it. Gotta love that Karl Gotch doesn't even have or know how to use a computer... so he wen't oldschool and broke out the pen, paper and good penmanship to get down to brass tacks. A scholar and a catch wrestler.
The first thing I should point out is that there is catch wrestling in Japan, but there is also alot of submission wrestling, shoot wrestling, combat wrestling, and hybrid wrestling as well which do not necessarily utilize the underlying principles of catch wrestling... this does not take away from these arts at all by the way... I call what I do submission wrestling because I blend ideas from Bjj into the mix to keep my personal practice more modern and able to deal with Bjj strategy... however I strongly adhere to the strategy and principles of catch wrestling... the blending of jiu jitsu and catch wrestling has been going on since the early 1900's atleast... Historically rich aristocrats would pay Japanese jiu jitsu masters to train their kids while poor kids learned catch wreslting... as these jiu jitsu masters traveled around trying to drum up business they would run into catch wrestlers and would fight exhibition matches or challenge matches... either way each learned from the other... this is why there are names for catch moves like Japanese arm bar or Japanese toe hold, Japanese death strangle, etc... and since Meada traveled as a pro wrestler for a time is probably the reason why Bjj has a move called "Americana"... The most pure form of catch from Japan comes from Fujiwara and you can see his knowledge of the principles in his movement... he is also very clever in how he covers the truth with what people want to see... and it is the way he conceals his art that reveals the frauds and wannabe's who use his material as their own... most people look at Fujiwara and think that he is doing techniques from poorly executed bjj positions... LOL... and so the uninitiated think it is all about upper body strength... the other japanese wrestling styles include some bits of catch wrestling but do not use the underlying principles... they use positional theory and wrestling transitions... and attack from so called inferior positions... all of these things are good... but not pure catch wrestling... Billy Wicks learned how to wrestle from Henry Kolln who was a student of Martin "farmer" Burns... Billy Wicks then traveled with a carnival atheletic show and faught all comers for a few years until he got involved in prowrestling where he fought as a "baby face" and was an enforcer... he became a deputy sherriff and instructor in arrest techniques and defensive driving... from Henry Kolln he learned the basics of the side wrist lock, toe holds, ball and chain, and nelson series... in the carnivals he learned the dirty tricks of punishing and learned the personal techniques of fighters such as Charlie Carr... during his involvement with pro wrestling he learned techniques from Strangler Louis and others... Billy Wicks calls his style Carny style hook wrestling to honor his heritage. the style I learned from him included the technique series and strategies he picked up from his various experiences and teachers... it was at first kind of random and seemed to be just a collection of wrestling tricks... it was hard to visualize alot of it because his health kept him from getting down and wrestling very much, but the more I listened to him and asked questions and reviewed my notes and cross referenced what he said with old pictures I began to figure things out and once I stopped thinking of catch wrestling as Bjj + more submissions and learned how to wrestle the correct way and how to control an opponent and how to ride and hook on the fly then he acknowledge that I had figured some of the secrets out and nudged me in the right direction to understand the others... and thats it... catch wrestling is individual... an individual expression... the terms and concepts I use to explain the underlying concepts are not the same as Billy Wicks or others use... some people who I trained with use Bjj positions as the basis of their expression... is that wrong? they did learn from Billy Wicks after all... and he seems okay with it as long as they stay out of guard... which violates one of the main principles... that being to not hold your opponent on top of yourself... keeping in mind that I try to stay out of the politics... Lets talk about Mr. Jake Shannon's article that Slip the Jab brought up... keep in mind that Jake Shannon wrote that so he could replace Tony C as top dog in the catch wrestling world... Mr. Shannon makes money off of catch wrestling just like Tony C and Matt Furey... take care, steve
ahhhhh.... the plot thickens. Interesting. Very interesting indeed. Definitely food for thought. Thanks for posting that.
the difference... OH no!!! slip the jab got the old rant version before I cleaned it up... oh well I suppose I stirred the pot after all... anyway... Since there is an interest and the best way to destroy myth is with truth... I will share some of the principles of catch wrestling in comparison with Jiu jitsu so that you guys can understand the fundamental differences between the two arts and hopefully gain some respect for catch in the process... Jiu jitsu: positional theory, gain a positional relationship of controlling the hips and shoulders or holding the opponent under yourself catch wrestling: movement theory, stay in motion to avoid opponents attempts to attack and stay a step ahead of opponent jiu jitsu: from position isolate a limb and shift position to apply leverage catch wrestling: while in motion contact a limb and fall into submission using motion to apply leverage jiu jitsu: control opponent by limiting his motion with close body contact using the legs. hold opponent catch wrestling: control opponent by limiting his next motion by giving him enough room to move only in one direction and encouraging his movement with pain or joint lock. release opponent jiu jitsu: position oriented thinking about submissions. submissions are short techniques applied from an established base position that may not change catch wrestling: submission oriented thinking about positional relationship. submissions can be complex starting in one position and ending in another relationship all together. transitions are often failed submission attempts attack from any relationship. Jiu jitsu: place weight in triangle through and around opponent to floor to hold opponent down catch wrestling: focus weight into a small pivot point on opponent and flow around opponent's movement jiu jitsu: transitional movement is momontary between positions based on escape and control. avoiding the scramble catch wrestling: transitional movement is constant and avoids positions as much as possible. forcing the scramble I think this is a good start to understanding the differences... I hope this helps you guys see the unique nature of catch wrestling... and I hope this reveals to you the lack of real catch on the videos out there... take care, steve
man oh man... does that ever need to be made into a sticky! The first thing that came to mind was after reading that was the way Erik Paulson moves in comparison to a Gracie. That break down is great. Some serious food for thought. Big props for posting that!!!
Wow...at least from my stand-point I can see the theory presented here, but I am not nearly qualified enough to judge the differences or effectiveness against one another. But I do understand the difference in mentality in where BJJ uses solid position, and Catch stays in constant motion and attack. Wish there was someone credible around here...gotta look I guess.
Erik Paulson is a very good example. Eddie Bravo also uses some catch movements in his system. twister, camel clutch, what he calls jiu claw.... and he transitions well using limbs instead of classical positions... Billy Wicks actually contacted Mr. Bravo a year ago to tell him that he was using catch wrestling techniques and to see if he wanted to learn more... Mr. Bravo made a joke out of it and was very rude... take care, steve
