Point 1 : Most "real" knife injuries are sustained with an edged weapon less than an inch long. Most commonly a craft knife blade such as a Stanley knife. In these instances, unless a person watched their attacker take this out their pocket, or saw them holding it, it is unlikely they'll know it's there. Most knife carrying criminals do so because they lack the social and physical skills to perpetrate their crimes without one thus. It is very unlikely they will 'advertise' the fact in advance of their intended act. Point 2 : *IF* a person knew there was a knife at play, the moment they focus on it, they've let their focus drift from the important issue. The Person. Point 3 : *IF* a person fails to react appropriately to the "threat" of assault, that means deal with the PERSON before they have the advantage; it doesn't matter one iota if the 'attacker' has a blade or not. Point 4 : There is nothing (in the traditional aikido sense) remotely resembling how a street thug will attack their victim with a blade within Aikido training. And unless one has an instructor with some form of experience in this, it is unlikely their students will ever be aware of what to expect. (No matter how much live blade 'training' they do in the dojo) Point 5 : Having counseled a number of knife carrying (convicted) criminals, almost all of them would stab or wound (penetrate their victims by some method) BEFORE doing anything else. Most of these injuries being sustained from the rear or rear flanks. Point 6 : Knife 'fights' just don't happen (unless it's between organised gangs etc) The 'point' I’m attempting to make is that although Aikido includes the tanto within the system, the method by which it is used and the applications against those 'attacks' are entirely outdated and have absolutely no relevance to what will occur in a 'real' environment. This is why I personally feel, 'training' with a live edged weapon is an un-necessary risk. Learning how to 'apply' yourself, anticipating potential problems within your environment and increasing one's situational awareness, which as we know comes from hard dedicated training, is IMHO far more beneficial.
I agree with everything Dave has posted, but also agree with the view by aikiwolfie that the sight of a shiny sharp steel blade does provide a greater challenge (fear if you like) to be overcome. As I posted earlier, I believe it actually helps you get to the point Dave mentioned, where you deal with the attacker rather than the weapon. I wouldn't have liked only to train with a wooden tanto as it fails to provide a proper separation of blade and handle and cannot therefore show up sloppy handling (to tori, particularly) quite as well. I'm not suggesting we need to bleed on the mats, however, every time we make a mistake! A steel tanto with the edge removed should be employed until the tori is ready for live tanto work. I'm not sure about the relevance of the dojo attacks to street attacks - I'm sure this will vary according with each style and school. We certainly used 'street stuff' but only in the random attack at BB level, not as 'traditional' Shudokan aikido curriculum content. Yes, knife 'fights' are are, but muggings with a knife as a threat are quite regularly in the news. The teenagers I worked with carried them daily, sometimes to defend themselves against such muggings. Yes, hand over your mobile, but they may kill you anyway. I know that what I learned has been useful but agree that, like all SD, it depends greatly on the instructor's 'real' experience. The thread was on Tomiki and I'm still not sure if many Tomiki classes offer even wooden tanto work, but I admit I've only seen a couple.
Coo. I've never seen a chart before - wonder what it means...can pointy knives hurt you, then?? I'm only impressed by the breach of copyright and the fact that you've now made MAP liable for it. Unless you are the author? (I don't know as you don't even credit the poor guy.)
Post #81 makes alot of sense to me to. however self dence from muggers etc was never the issue. So far as self defence goes I think Aikido weapons techniques are as relevant as any Aikido technique. As for people who carry knives for mugging etc. The police in Glasgow confiscate everything from box knives, stanley knives, metal combes and fishing knives all the way upto Katans. Those who might rob you may use something they can hide. However those who simpley want to hurt you use what ever is to hand.
Happy now, Kiaki? Btw, it's from a WW2-era manual so I doubt anyone would care if it's spread around the internet... I've seen it on several sites and forums. I just posted it because I think it's odd that aikiwolfie's dojo trains with live blades (sharp and made of metal) and does so without being compliant (so the two "partners" aren't holding back, ie the one with the knife is trying as hard as he can to cut or stab the other one) and yet no one has died yet. How did you guys get that dojo insured?
Aikiwolfie - The police must be very, very efficient where you are!! Sadly, we see police about as often as rocking horse dung. Weekend nights in rural towns and small cities see many acts of serious violence, but very few police. My last really bad experience left me facing a bunch of lads with an assortment of weapons - they didn't like me as I had helped put away their drug-dealer mate who was selling to schoolkids INSIDE a school I helped manage. Luckily, a crowd came out of a nearby park and they screamed of in their car. The police arrived half an hour later - at the wrong place. Local lads often have 'tactical' type folders and small sheath knives - all cheap stuff but still effective in size etc. Our police now assume every incident of violence will have someone carrying one and wear the vests on all such occasions. The following week, a kid was joyriding and two cars full of police in stab vests turned up within 10 mins - but only because they were getting ready for their annual party at nearby Stonehenge and fancied a warm-up! Pankration - lots of dojos train with live weapons. Shudokan has 3,000 students and does so. They don't need the BAB for insurance - lots of organisations ofer it. I've asked other MA's locally and they also use live weapons without insurance problems. Until I looked at MAP I honestly had never considered it as a problem.
So true.. Self defence from muggers wasn't the subject but, why do we study a "martial art" if, at some very basic level, it isn't so we might be equipped (however moderatly that may be) with some form of self preservation skill ? Other wise your argument for the use and benefit of a live edged weapon in our training sort of falls flat on it's face. How many situations have you faced where a knife has been intentionally employed against you with malice? I love aikido and everything about it but I can assure you (based on several years uniformed experience) aikido (insert your style here) needs a very high standard of skill to be effective against a half commited individual who intends to harm you with a knife, and the 'normal' applications - Shomen, Yokomen, Tsuki, don't equip you enough. Trust me I have the scars to prove what I'm talking about. Again very true, I don't deny that all manor of edged weapons have been and will continue to be used to assault fellow human beings but, what we're discussing are the merits of live bladed training, and in relation to Shodokan Aikido (and aikido in general), the knife, nothing else. Dave
My original argument here for using a live blade was purely that it is a higher form level of training. I don't see why self defence has to come into that. I've never been attacked by a big nasty bad man with a knife on the street. However I was attacked with a 12" blade from a set of garden sheers. And I don't have any scars to prove it. Which is why self defence was never the issue here.
Neither have I.. All my experiences were with convicted Catagory A prisoners with nothing much to loose from their actions. With reference to a "higer level" of training each to their own.
Well Catagory A prisoners have to come from somewhere. Which is what i said way back at the start of the thread.
Hello Hello, this is my first post here. I have to admit that I'm here because Pankration90 was asking me all sorts or questions about Aikido on a different forum and so I had to see why he was asking so much. I came here and read some of the stuff and it looks pretty good. Anyway, to the subject of live blades. I think it was Dave Humm that said something about the right mental attitude for knives. I agree that is a very important piece of training, such things as treating all training weapons as real to avoid learning bad habits like handing weapons back to an uke, or even bad habits like helping an uke get up off the ground. You will fight how you train and if you train in these bad habits to become seated instinct, they very well might come out as what you do in a stressful situation. With live blades there is more of a safety issue than with trainers -- that's pretty obvious. Lethal force is not something to be taken lightly. I've done some live blade training and it did have that shock factor to it. Really helps to keep you from building bad habits too. However, all the live blade training was done at a very slow speed. We worked on technique, not fighting. Slower speed training can help develop better technique because your mind can better comprehend and learn the details of technique. It also helps to develop better technique against larger opponents because at slower speeds you can't use speed and strength to compensate for bad technique. Remember that Aikido is about learning principles first, not about techniques. Principles like learning to down an opponent in the same direction they are moving. The techniques are only the application of principles, so at slow speeds you must apply and understand those principles or the technique will be crap. At faster speeds, live blades are very dangerous and we have only used them at speed in demonstration and the cuts were out of range for safety. This is why I do not believe you should train live blades at full speed, because you build the unhealthy habit of striking out of range for safety. At full speed you have to have the right mental attitude that the weapon is real, you do not strike out of range with a real weapon, you try to cut the other. At the same time, the tori is going to do what it takes to survive. You know the saying that you should love others in Aikido, and if the attacker comes at you with a knife they must be sick, and if you love them, it is your duty to help them go see the doctor. The uke must give good attack with intention. If you do that with real knives, that is not training, it is called a death match. Now I talked about slow training and the benefits of it. Well training at speed has benefits too. Randori and such at faster speeds, up to full speed helps to develop footwork and gain experience in fighting -- So long as the uke give good attacks and offers appropriate resistance. So slower speed training to work out the details of technique, faster speed training against resistance to gain experience in fighting. Just my humble opinion.
undefinedThe thread was on Tomiki and I'm still not sure if many Tomiki classes offer even wooden tanto work, but I admit I've only seen a couple.[/QUOTE] In answer to the above question from Kiaiki about the use of wooden tanto work in Tomiki/Shodokan Aikido, is that within the group that I was taught by we use wooden tanto for all our Kata practice. Tomiki/Shodokan Aikido has two kata that have Tanto Dori one being Koryu dai San or koryu goshin Kata and the Koryu dai roku, this kata also has a tanto nage section this requires the use of a wooden tanto to make techniques work. I was very luck to have a Sensei who had a great knowlege of the Koryu No Kata of Tomiki Aikido and other weapons systems Dr Lee hold the rank of 7th Dan Aikido, 7th Dan Jodo, 7th Dan Iaido. Sadly within some Tomiki/Shodokan groups apart from the Dai San & Dai Yon the Koryu No Kata has been neglected over the years as these were the only koryu requirement for examination, although this is being redressed now. Students who followed Dr Lee and the European Aikido Association had to learn all six Koryu No Kata to advance within their grades. The Koryu No Kata use various weapon Tanto Boken, Jo these include Tanto Dori, Tanto Nage. Tachi Dori, Kumi Tachi. Yari Dori, Yari Nage. I hope that this answers some of the issues raised about Tomiki Aikido. Shaun Hoddy
Thanks Shinkei. That's the most informative post I've read for ages. Ta Hi Rebel Wado. I would never strike off-target with a live blade as it meses up timing and distance for the proper execution of a technique. and, unless, you are very clever, looks bad in a demo. Strike on-target and give tori the energy needed for a good technique. I've only ever seen beginners hand back a knife in freestyle, usually resulting in much mirth. There's fun to be had at the other extreme too - place the knife far away from uke with yourself in between and when they go for it - take em down (shomenate is a favourite)! Tori should be totally dominant on the mat in freestyle and this surprises the beejasus out of a uke. Our freestyle has no 'rules' as such so a pre-emptive attack from tori is not forbidden, although this is the only time I've seen it used with a weapon.
I don't know how I managed to miss this. However I feel this point is being laboured over far too much. Haven't I already stated that it is a level of practice you build upto. Just like any other type of practice. Compliance as I see it is falling down for the sake of falling down. Pretending tori executed the technique. I think that is far more dangerouse than training with a knife. Purley because now that individuale has a false sense of security in what they can do. And why would it be odd that where I train we use live blades? Many dojos around the world train with live blades. It's not even unique within the UK. Even though they might be outlawed soon, high quality live blades both tantos and katans are on sale in the UK. And anybody 18 or over can buy them with very little fuss. It's actually easier to buy a tanto than it is to go into Dixons and pay for an item with cash. That is what I find most disturbing about live blades. It might not be the norm for Tomiki circles. But I don't do Tomiki Aikido. It's also an element of practice reserved for higher grades where I train. It's not even normally done when kyu grades are on the mat. While some people are considering how dangerouse a live blade is. Consider how dangerouse a bokken is. A wooden sword. A strike to the head with a bokken could kill just as easily as a live tanto or katana. Especially if the bokken is made from good quality hard wood. Even where the head is not the target or point of impact using a bokken is still very dangerouse. Even a poor quality bokken will easily break bones with a powerful enough strike. Broken bones that heal badly require several operations to correct. The duration of the treatment and healing time here can take years. Similarly should a powerful poke with a jo find it's target the consequences could be fatal. Internal bleeding can go undetected for a long time. And by the time symptoms appear it could be too late. How many people stop and think about how dangerouse these weapons are? Does insurance suddenly become a primary concern when the teacher orders students to take out their jo's and bokkens? I'm betting for most people "No" is the answer. How dangerouse is ukemi practice. Seriously how dangerouse it it to place yourself in a situation where you could easily break either your neck or a shoulder if you do it wrong? After they've learnt a basic ukemi most people probably don't even give it a second thought. Even though stories of broken shoulders and damaged backs and necks from poor ukemi are common place in Aikido dojos up and down the land and all over the world. I would bet almost everybody who practices Aikido knows somebody who has hurt themselves badly in this way. Aikido doesn't suddenly become fataly dangerouse because a live blade has been introduced to the practice. The response that the suggestion of a live blade has produced in this thread illustraights the shock factor I was talking about earlier. Since Dave has brought the self defence issue into the discussion lets take that into consideration for a moment. Now I'm not about to suggest that Aikido attacks and defences will prepare anybody to deal with a knife on the street. However if a student can be so easily rattled purley by the suggestion of a knife, then how would that same student react to suddenly finding themselves in a dangerouse situation. It doesn't even have to be a situation such as a mugging or any sort of fight. It only has to be a situation where the stress endured will force the student to make rash decisions or even worse. To shut down and freeze completely. How does an Aikido teacher deal with this problem. Does he say "that's too dangerouse and I see no need to take that risk"? Does he say "oh just maintain your center and you'll be fine". Or should the teacher give the student experience of dealing with more and more intense situations that the student can learn to deal with in the safety of the dojo and under the guidance of the teacher? The teachers response doesn't have to be a live tanto practice. However conducted properly, it is as valid as any other option. Personally for me using a live blade during practice is something I do because it's another tool for me to use to improve on my Aikido. I appologise for the rant.
Thanks for the welcome everyone. kiaiki, I may have misinterpreted your last post, but are you saying that you train with live blades and in that training you attack with full speed and force as to be said to be intent to kill with those live blades? Or to put it differently, on a scale of 1 to 100%, with 100% being full out trying to kill the other, what speed and intensity do you conduct your live blade training at? There is not one right answer I suspect, but just to tell I little more from my perspective, why even care as an Aikido teacher? In the bigger picture there are no styles of martial arts when it comes to fighting. Everything falls under the category of martial arts. Martial arts is all inclusive, so why say that it is Aikido when it really is reality based self-defense training that you are hinting at. I don't defend against knives only using Aikido, I use concepts and experience, and anything that works to get the job done. I've found that there are a few concepts that I have trained that work much better than others verse armed attackers, like how to "catch" and how to "pin" delivery systems from which I can apply my techniques. If you don't have that "catch" and that "pin" developed, I pretty much guarentee that the majority of your techniques will not work against a knife wielding attacker that is say a hundred pounds bigger than you, and I mean one with minimal skill. If they are a skilled knife fighter, your odds of getting it to work are much, much, smaller. If you are introducing counter knife training for self-defense then why not train it the same manner that we do in RBSD, not try to incorporate it into Aikido. Aikido training has so many benefits, one of which is to help you develop your warrior spirit and inner peace, so that you can act with "no mind" and with purpose. If someone is afraid, that is natural, but what is it that they are fighting for, not their lives as for some that is not enough. I often tell them to picture going to their car in a dark parking lot and seeing a bunch of thugs around their car, how do they feel, what do they do? They are often afraid and go back inside and wait for the thugs to leave. I then give them the same scenario and add that these thugs are harrassing their daughter or son or wife or husband or any loved one. They are still afraid, but they know inside that they have to do something. What are you fighting for in your training? You want realism, start with what is inside a person, that tiger/wolf, never give up attitude inside the warrior. Aikido is about principles and about spirituality, inner peace. The seasoned warrior, the one that has engaged in battles and knows how to fight already, can benefit from Aikido. Train how you like, but everything you train in is not Aikido. But that is okay, because everything is still martial arts.
