I know this is probably raking up some old(ish) coals but I wonder why is Ki society aikido held in such disdain by "other" aikido practitioners? Is it something to do with the man or something with the message? Oh yeah this isn't a troll post either My background is mainly CMA and I do a lot of aikido as I enjoy the mix.
I would say the man, due to what I read in Roy Suenaka's Complete Aikido (he was there after the split and I didn't like what Tohei did and said). I would say the art due to what I have seen. Didn't think much of it, and didn't feel much either (I politely feel over as was expected of me and never returned). I will say that Tohei's techniques were good, for him, but not for others. Regards,
Many traditional aikidoka feel that it has lost the martial effectiveness of the original art by over emphasising ki. I myself have seen what can only be called ridiculous demonstrations by some modern exponents of shin shin toitsu. regards koyo I was taken to task by a number of the original aikido shihan for calling it ki aikido. I was told it is not aikido it is Shin shin toitsu (new new way) I think this thread has the potential to become very heated.I have been training in traditional aikido for forty plus years many of these spent cross training in other tarditional japanese arts.For me PERSONALY ki society has taken the art in the wrong direction. (see thread)
The fellow himself looked quite well balanced BUT presented countless openings for attack and the uke's (gasping in pain and shock) NEVER mounted a single commited attack. Sorry definately NOT for me. regards koyo
Agreed! I love the part were the lady with short hair (I think, this computer doesn't have flash on it so I can't check) punches him, and he taps her on the arm and she squeals and flys forward So very bad. Regards,
To be fair I don't think that organisation is part of the Ki Society. If they were then they should be using the name Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido. Unfortunately the Ki Aikido community is even more fractured than the rest of the Aikido community as a whole. To make things even worse they all use the term Ki Aikido. To answer the original question. Nobody other than those around at the time actually knows what went on when Koichi Tohei left the Aikikai. There are all sorts of rumors and stories that have been spread around with names of high ranking Aikido shihan dropped in to make them sound authentic. And that's on both sides of the argument. What we can say for certain is that it is unlikely that there will be any official contact between the Ki Society and the Aikikai or any of the other major groups any times soon. The Ki Society is pretty much on it's own in that respect. Which to be honest I think is a bit sad. Has Ki Aikido lost it's martial effectiveness? I think has. But then again the Ki Society make no bones about the fact that their primary goal is not to turn their students into unbeatable martial artists. Ki Aikido or Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido is more focused on the personal development of the individual. http://www.ki-society.com/english/renew/aikidokai_001.html http://www.ki-society.com/english/index.html
Well, whatever happened the results are still echoing on into the present... Just because there was a bitch fight does that mean there is nothing there in this ki society? Somewhat like a scene from Monty Python, perhaps? It seems to be that theres no resistance in any of the techniques demonstrated in that clip. Once uke just flips over, on a whim, the effectiveness of the technique is lost. It no longer demonstrates ki or indeed anything of value at all (imho) and becomes a bit like performing organ-grinder monkeys.
Are there poor standards of practice in the Ki Society? Yes there are. There are good clubs and bad clubs as there are in many systems. Unfortunately the bad clubs tend to out number the good clubs. Ki Aikido is becoming very very commercial and trys to be user friendly. The clip is undeniably crap. But so far as I can work out the Aiki Institute in Seattle has nothing to do with the Seattle Ki Society. http://www.seattlekisociety.org/ The guy in the video is clearly a fruit-loop that's gone native.
At the makotokai we have had numerous shin shin toitsu dan grades visit.To a man they have been respectful and have been treated in the same manner. However they have ALL been vulnerable to atemi. They have ALL attempted to spin around us to no avail. My problem is many DO present it as a martial art while discarding MAJOR principles such as constant defence of the centreline,atemi and powerfull and acurate attacks. The most important principle of DO NOT give up your posture unless unbalanced properly is also absent.The attacker must spin. turn and spiral around the aikidoka NOT the opposite. The reason I feel so strongly about this debate (if it is called martial art or aikido) is that SO many when faced with the resistance or powerfull attack end up leaving martial arts all together. regards koyo edit This from an advetisement for ki society in Glasgow "learn defence against a knife, sword and multiple attacks." I was there when Tohei split from aiki kai. It was NOT at all amicable.
I think Suenaka's book tells it like it is. If you haven't read it, I recommend it. To be balanced (balance is important in Aikido) here is a clip of Tohei going at it with a resisting uke. I recommend you turn the volume down http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-5231835166570890125 Regards,
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Xw5MicBrjM"]YouTube[/ame] Ki Aikido or Aikikai? I think it's Aikikai, but it doesn't look much different from Ki Aikido.
I will chime in here as I was a student of the Ki Society for 3 years. It is the first and only aikido I've taken and I did it about 15 years ago. I am quite ignorant of any internal politics that exist currently within the Aikido community or that existed with those that learned from O Sensei and went on to form their own schools/styles. My experience in the dojo was that it was filled with a wide range of people (both teachers and students) who were all nice, kind, upbeat and focused people. It did focus a lot on Ki aspects but, how they were presented depended on the instructor. Fortunately the person that I learned from (mostly) was a very practical fellow. He had several black belts, one of them in Chinese Kenpo and was a Sandan in Aikido at the time of my instruction. Ki instruction from him was more about perception, reaction, fluidity of movement and balance. It wasn't mystical but, there were others there that did gravitate more to that end of the Ki pool. There was no atemi. None. I found this odd but, was told that it was simply the style. However, my sensei often would interject privately how one could open up opportunities with a carefully focused strike here or there. Quite often people would ask about the ability of the average person to use what they were being taught to beneficial effect "in the street". My sensei would always be honest and say that it took the average person longer to get the timing and movements down to where they could effectively use them in self-defense as opposed to say TKD or Karate. He personally stated his reason for being there was because he felt it a style that he couldn't ever conceive fully knowing. He always felt like he was learning something new. So, I eventually left there for several reasons: work, life, etc. It certainly wasn't the people but, I did have issues wondering about how effective it was as a martial art (as it was taught there). I would often think in the midst of a technique, "If I were to just add a palm strike/slap/kick here it would seem to be very effective" or "If I took it a bit farther this way I can see it being much more compelling/effective". However, I sometimes thought I was just being the 'know it all' student trying to create something better out of a system that I wasn't accomplished in. The funny thing is that when I started Aikido at the Ki Society I was originally looking for traditional Japanese Jujitsu but, I couldn't find any in my area. The club I am with now (JJJ) began about 12 years ago just around the time I was leaving the Ki Society. Had I only known.
I can't disagree with you there koyo, I've experienced the same thing in the very club I used to train with and it was a major bug bear. As I said in my own post Ki Aikido has lost it's martial effectiveness. But as I said the video originally posted doesn't seem to be Ki Society related. If someone posts a video from the Ki Society that is just as bad then fair enough. However good or bad the Aikido from the Ki Society is, I don't think it's fair to judge them based on something produced from an unrelated source. Can you shed any light on what it was all about?
I have nothing positive to say about that clip at all. What I can say is I was in attendance at one of the first seminats given by my teacher at the time. A japanese shihan sent by the aiki kai . While demonstrating on a very large gentlemen, said gentlemen quite suddenly resisted and attempted to take the shihan to the ground. BANG a sickening atemi to the solar plexus and a rokkyu that could have broken the fellow's arm. He did not need to be asked twice to leave. regards koyo edit I could have taken that big guy down. And that is NOT bragging. Wolfie Shedding light on what happened at the split would take me into areas I do not wish to go. Politics and personalities. Suffice to say I was told NEVER to call shihn shin toitsu, aikido. Tadashi Abbe shihan went as far as to compose a letter accusing Tohei of disrespect for the art and complete disregard for O Sensei and no originality. He wished to post it to all aikido clubs at that time. The aiki kai decided that is would promote splits which happened anyway.
I posted the video based on the title. It also looks similar to the Ki Aikido school I experienced so I had no reason to believe that the Aiki Institute was not Ki Aikido. Regards,
That's fair enough Ogmios. I'm not trying to take a dig at you in any way. I just think if people want to get into this sort of debate they should be aware it's not so clean cut these days. There are an awful lot of awful people claiming to be teaching Ki Aikido who have nothing to do with the Ki Society.
