TOG TKD

I'll give it to you, you're dedicated to being prepared.

On a slippery surface, I honestly would throw few if any kicks, and I would certainly not argue that TKD kicks (or kicks of any kind) are a good strategy for certain environments. But like some other posters have said, punches, elbows, knees, etc ARE in the curriculum. Do a lot of schools focus on them? Nope. But you can't blame the system for the faults of the practitioners. That's like blaming Jesus because Christians don't always abide by the tenets of their faith.

I encourage all TKDers to explore and learn to utilize ALL weapons that the system includes, and I know that at least SOME instructors are doing this. I'm pretty sure that Mitch incorporates elbows, knees and leg kicks in his classes, for instance.

 

Yes it is & for some a good game along with a focus on their training. I see no problem with that, but wish they wouldn't mix it up with SD or protecting themselves from harm in a street situation etc.
There is some benefit from tournament or COMPETITION game TKD training as well. But from a common sense standpoint, just not as much if the total emphasis of your training was combat protection.

I also agree totally that if not implemented or used in training, it does exist only on paper. So my point is that YES it does EXIST on PAPER on the pages of the Encyclopedia of TKD Gen. Choi authored. So I am defending the system or syllabus & putting the blame on instructors, schools, groups or students that do not participate in this valuable part of training.
So in essence it is not ITF TKD itself, but the lazy, uniformed or both that simply do not follow the system that they profess to be part of.
While there is enough criticism to go around all TKD or most commercial MA entities, my BIGgest complaint is towards the ITFers, as often they seem to say their system is the best, but they don't know it more fully & are often even more guilty than other TKD styles that they think they are better than.

 

Not too long ago & I do love the mountains. However I also love reading & have read Gen. Choi's writings extensively & repeatedly. This is needed if we are to more fully understand a complex & near complete system, imho. I am amazed at how much more I learn from re-reading the same material. Sadly it seems that far too many students of TKD do not have a good textbook. Then the ones that do, usually only occasionally refer to it, to look up a move, like in the patterns, instead of studying the written guides. They really do not know what they are missing!

 

I definitely think that even that is valuable for self-defense. For one, it develops such qualities as speed, reaction time, an understanding of range, and the ability to defend against an attack. It also teaches you how to punch or kick someone while attacks are coming at you, as well as how to deal with the shock of getting hit. Do you not feel that all these things will help in a self-defense situation?

I think that this is all good and I encourage it. Though to be honest if you have 3 guys coming at you with baseball bats, you're screwed. If you're quick and agile you can maybe escape, but otherwise you're in for a long night.

Personally, I feel like if you end up getting attacked on the street, fighting with your hands is a worst-case scenario. In a true life-or-death situation, I want one of these . . . fits into a pocket and has enough stopping power to get you out alive. . .

 

I would add using a front snap kick with the knee as well as the turning kick, which we call a roundhouse kick, with the knee as well. The other parts of the 2 upper limbs are handy as well. But you have to train them!

 

Yes, I think that the complete system of ITF TKD is excellent and if I could find a GOOD school to train with, then I would be more than happy to do so and I'm sure I would consider it a worthwhile lifelong pursuit. The problem is that, at least in my area, the situation with ITF TKD just sucks. There are some very good individual practitioners, but at least from what I've experienced, the classes are just not good.

I'm now finding in wado-ryu what I wanted from ITF TKD but failed to find on the local level.

 

I think you & I are pretty close. Just kindly change sparring to tournament sports match rules, as Gen. Choi's sparring, which you follow as an ITFer, is comprised of 6 types, with sports tournament game fighting is NOT 1 of.
Please try in your training to free spar, with being actually "FREE" to use all techniques (within obvious safety concerns). It may change your dynamic & enhance your ability to protect yourself, as well as toughen you up, as you will go to the ground & will have to continue to fight.
Then understand the 3 motions of ITF Hoosinsul. Then think about how it fits into the system you are doing. I am sure you will benefit.

 

Agree
Biggest problem imnsho is the mixing up of SD or protection training/fighting with competition sport games!

 

Well you certainly have provided me with a lot of interesting reading material. You get a bit preachy at times, but it's obvious that you've done your homework.

BTW, are you an instructor, and if so, how do you run your classes? If you're not an instructor, how do the classes run where it is that you train? Do they incorporate all the material into the training that you feel should be there or are you just having the take the best that you can get?

 

Yes, but as I said before, I think that even sports competition develops a lot of abilities that are essential for self-defense. I mean, think about boxing. Boxing is PURE sport. It doesn't even PRETEND to be a self-defense system, and yet. . .



[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VghHktr89lE"]armenian boxer vs group of turks - YouTube[/ame]

 

Yes but you must get away from your definition & go to Gen. Choi's definition, as that is the TKD you are training in.
His free sparring IS NOT tournament sports match rules competition, although he has that as well. See Vol 1. For SD & sparring, see vol 5.

If you do his "FREE" sparring & his HooSinSul, your SD or protection skills will be enhanced, as it will flow in the way he designed it & you are in his system, so follow the manual AND it will enhance & develop more fully the scenarios of SD that you describe. More realism, less static with more flowing, adapting is better. You are on the way!
Good luck........

 

Me too! Not only do we have to do more, we must know more about our systems! Hopefully this thread we help a bit with that as well........

 

Quote: Originally Posted by SPX
"I encourage all TKDers to explore and learn to utilize ALL weapons that the system includes, and I know that at least SOME instructors are doing this. I'm pretty sure that Mitch incorporates elbows, knees and leg kicks in his classes, for instance."

Yes this is an important part of ITF TKD's fundamental movements. They help us to develop the techniques AND the knowledge as how to utilize them better & under what conditions.
Problem is that far too often they are trained under tournament competition match preparation. Easy to adjust! Simply refocus the pads & targets to reflect vital spots that are normally prohibited in game competition by the sports rules in effect.
Twisting kicks are often under utilized for this reason, as are elbows, sweeps, forearms, fingers, knees etc. Correct & creative placing of targets, shields, pads, focus mitts, combined with the visualization that they are the vital spots of a bad guy, not sports opponent, will be a good start with the basics IMHO.

 

I do have one question. . .

If Gen. Choi was not a fighter, as you have often mentioned, why should we assume that he was capable of developing an effective fighting system?

 

I am sorry for that. But also remember that at some point, our training is & should be our responsibility. I would wager a bet that some of the best or more efficient SD training comes from partners of like mind, training together. Surely in any school, one can find another like minded individual & some time, along with a little space to train as such, even within the 4 walls of your current dojang. Who knows, it might catch on! Good luck........

 

I am so sorry for giving off the preachy attitude. I can assure you that it is not my intention. I only wish to share, which is what teaching or instructing should be about IMNSHO!
ITF TKD for me is a lifelong journey with various goals, SD being only 1. However I do my best, which is always lacking, given the amount of material to cover. But we try to cover it all as best as we can. It is clearly not an easy task by no means!
Also these forums only allow us to type & at times written words, minus the mannerisms or expressions and care often don't come through. Sorry again!

 

Absolutely agree. But then again we both seem to understand that their are some limitations & possible downsides to just training that way with regards to SD skills. But a well rounded MAist IMO will understand that & take measures to maximize their SD training, apart from basics & sport competition

 

Good question!
Gen. Choi was a martial artist, no doubt about it. He trained & taught in Japan. Then did so back home in Korea, before doing it around the entire globe many times over. He traveled so much he would remark that he had 2 homes. One in Canada & 1 in an airplane in the air, as he was always on the move.
He started teaching in the ROK Army, but he quickly rose to a 2 Star Major-General. While he had his own daily training regiment or routine, his station in life did not afford him opportunities to be a fighter. He did fight in other arenas though, like the political arena.
But his station in life did afford him the ability to have as his followers some very real tough fighters. Remember that after the Japanese occupation ended, Korea was essentially a lawless place, with no government at all in place. Gangs thrived & you were tough or you got swallowed up or kicked aside. While he was a scrapper, he was not a fighter. However his fighters incorporated real fighting into the system with him & for him.
When these tough guys dropped out, due to the KCIA pressure, he was left with few Korean masters. His emphasis was always on the patterns & it remained that way as his military TKD for SD became civilianized.
So this IMNSHO is why we must adhere to his written directions & supplement the commercial training that exists in many places.

 

It's all good. It's not something I've gotten upset about or anything. For the most part I enjoy reading your posts.

BTW, do you do any other styles than TKD or is it more than enough to keep you occupied?

Yes, but my point is that even sport sparring is beneficial from a self-defense standpoint. I mean, unless you get hit from behind, an attack is an attack. In TKD you learn to evade/defend and counter-attack. This is certainly a critical skill for SD, even if the attack will be of a different nature on the street.

Thanks for the info. Interesting stuff.

Good to know that he had fighters who were able to take his theories and test them out and prove them. Otherwise it's all just that . . . theory.

 

I dont agree and I will say why.
The important things are the fundamentals..the science of boxing..the little things and basics of functional use of the body to attack and defend with the hands using timing,footwork, anticipation etc etc. These things transfer through the body in terms of fundamentalmovement the and head in terms of knowlegde...its not about the end of the limb you hit with or shape of your hand.