TOG TKD

Thats a great point. TKD is best suited, in my opinion ,off the cuff ,straight away, pretty close up and doing simple things very hard repeatably before the other guy gets going. If its been taught well.

The big but is that a person can not afford to predict anything so if that has not worked you are now in a fight. And not all things start like that.
And your fist attempt to defend yourself might go wrong. Also the big flaw is you do not know how good someone else is untill it is too late. Every one seriouse about SD should be treating the person they have to defend against as highly skilled, in my opinion. You just dont know. Its a myth that everyone is untrained. Why take the risk.
Its not all ''thugs''. Anyone can attack and be attacked,anywhere..everyone has a bad day..there are millions of scenariose that could have all different types of personalities attacking someone or trying to fight someone. There is no steriotype ''bad guy'' .

Then there is simply the experience of trying to be as good as possible.

 

No doubt about that. But please remember that while TKD will not be able to box at par with boxers under boxing rules, boxers are limited to punching with the fore fist. In that area they rule for sure!
However MAists in general are not limited to striking only with the fore fist of the hand, but rather can use all parts of the hands. So MA schools must develop this & use it in there training, especially against the vulnerable vital spots of the body that are a good fit for fingers, thumbs, back of the fist, knife hand etc.

 

Yes & punching with the fore fist is not the only use of hands for SD purposes!

 

No actually in ITF TKD, the TKD Gen. Choi taught & documented so fully, sparring is not a game. It has 6 types of categories & none of them are for games, sports or competition purposes. The ITF sports match rules are not part of the 6 types of sparring. They are not even placed in the volume of the 15 set Encyclopedias that deals with digging/sparring/SD!
the problem is that far too many ITFers themselves do not realize this. ITF TKD has an awesome free sparring, that is practiced starting at 4th gup blue belt, called free sparring, where one is FREE to use ALL available means for attack & defense. Sadly few train this way. I know Mr. Anslow, technically not an ITFer as far as membership goes, but he does this, does it often & calls it traditional sparring. He also did not come to it, from my understanding form the manuals, but rather as a natural progression, as he is SD based in his training & focus.

I know this may be seen as splitting hairs, but I think it is essential to not only define properly the terms of the debate, as that is definitely needed! But also if we know our terms & syllabus better, we stand a better chance of implementing it.

(Please this is not to be confused with the multitude of McDojos/Jangs out there. As few of them will ever implement real SD training, as not enough students really know what it is or want it. I don't think it is good for the prevalent business model. MMAs & combat karate or other combat centered schools have always stepped in to fill the void. When Eastern MAs came to the West, they were for SD. Once the kiddie invasion took over, thanks to the Karate Kid & Ninja Turtle movies, SD pretty much went out the window, as we then had generations of kids trained for fun, now grown up a bit, teaching some make believe SD, if that!)

 

Yes as you know these debates can often center around semantics or get confused by semantics!
The fact remains that most commercial MA schools train 2 major components:
1- sports match rules competition
2- patterns (or forms)
Then in class the breakup is something like this:
Warm up, followed by basics for forms & sports purpose, then the sports competition match rules fighting & patterns themselves.
Once in awhile, someone will say - Oh! we forgot SD, so they throw in a couple of minutes of the fake cheesy Kung Fu theater stuff, that makes me cringe, thinking - see we covered SD!

 

I tend to disagree with this (sorry TKDstudent), sparring is like 2 people (or 3) having the same techniques used in a controlled enviroment. I don't mean this is planned but you kind of know what to expect if you know what I mean.

We practise SD and it sometimes lasts a whole hour with different scenarios may it be knifes, close contact, attacks from behind etc etc. There is never a ready stance on each part and then begin.

I think the SD part has helped me enormously as I have been in a situation where I needed to use my SD and trust me I was more surprised than the guy that went for me. Now if I was trained sparring only i would not know what to do. It's only my opinion.

 

No need to be sorry for disagreeing. That is not a problem! We learn from sharing various & often different viewpoints.
However, I must respectfully caution you that while I mean no disrespect, you seem to not be following what I am saying. By your posted picture insert, you seem to have TKD students in ITF DoBoks. So forgive me for my assumption that you are somehow ITF TKD related.
In any event, you are nit really disagreeing with me, but rather the principle founder of TKD. I am writing about his words & teachings. If you refer to the appropriate text you will see that he defines sparring differently from the way you offer. He has 6 types of sparring listed & that DOES NOT include sports match competition rules. His sparring is an essential way to learn to protect yourself, ie SD. However his formal HOOSINSUL is an element of SD that gives you more options for SD or protecting oneself or others. His Hoosinsul has 3 motions. It comes in at red belt level as it is considered complex & advanced. In essence it gives you more options with SD or protecting yourself, besides kicking & punching.

It seems from what you post that you made be doing a good job with SD, but seem to not be using the same definition of sparring as I am or Gen. Choi did or does in his writings.

Please think of it this way for purposes of clarity:
SELF PROTECTION - anything that you can do to protect yourself.
In ITF TKD this would include the 6 types of sparring that Gen. Choi taught AND the formal Hoosinsul that he taught as well.

Hoosinsul translates in Korean roughly as defending yourself. However in ITF TKD it is a specific category of formal training that comes in at red belt 2 nd gup level.
This is added to sparring to enhance one's ability to protect themselves!
Confusing, yes I know! Sorry, but it is a system that while well documented, is nit studied IMHO enough & is blurred further when Koreans & the Korean language is shared in English or other languages.

 

True.. but he also defines it in the way that nearly everyone thinks of it these days! For whatever reason.. that is how it is!

I think everyone should adopt my term 'Traditional Sparring' so we all know what type of sparring we are talking about (no need for a discussion on the words btw TKDStudent )


Stuart

 

Just to satisfy my curiosity, if I may ask, what exactly is your background? How did you get into TKD and what has the general arc of your journey been? Because I may be wrong, but just reading your posts, it sounds like there's more to it than just, "I signed up at a karate school one day. . ."

 

Well I kinda did just sign up at a karate school one day, a Korean karate school(tkd). It was after a discussion with a friend over a movie I saw. I was always interested in fighting.
So a little while later I train to fight, so I don't have to fight!
(ok sorry for the Mr. Miyagi karate kid reference)

 

Yes agreed we don't have to go down that road again!
However it is vital that people understand terms so we can have a more efficient discussion. I think if people thought more, studied more, some of these problems would disappear or at least lessen.
It really boils down to tournament sports match stuff & the training that goes along with that AND protecting yourself & the training that goes along with that.

 

This argument could go in a lot of different directions, though.

A boxer doesn't have kicks or grappling.
An MT guy is not as good of a puncher as a pure boxer, and has no groundfighting.
A TKD guy has great, powerful kicks, with he's not as good of a puncher as those above and probably has little-to-no grappling.

Etc.

It's not like there is any perfect art. At the end of the day, you're going to make a trade-off of one kind or another if you only have the time to do one or maybe two styles.

I guess if you have the time and the money, then you might as well do it all, studying distinct styles for punching, kicking, and grappling. But few have that luxury.

I like that Bruce Lee quote about kicking too well for a boxer, throwing too well for a karate guy, and punching too well for a judo man. This is the benefit of being well-rounded. If you do end up in an encounter where you are outmatched in one area you can change the gameplan and play to their weaknesses.

 

Maybe I should've said COMPETITION TKD sparring is a game. . .

BTW, Gen. Choi could've said a lot of things, but if schools don't use it then it only exists on paper.

 

IMHO, the most successful self defense attacks are the basics:

- Front kick
- Side kick
- Back kick
- Roundhouse kick
- Jabs
- Straight

I'm a simple guy . . . if a martial arts teaches one of these, then to me it's good for self defense.

Anyone trying to do more than that in a self defense setting (I don't care who you are or what you practice) is asking for trouble.

 

How long ago was that?

From the way you often "fight the good fight" as if you're Gen. Choi's official spokesperson, I've long had this idea of you being trained from birth in the mountains of Korea by a wise old master or something like that.

 

I agree that SD should be kept simple. Let's leave the 540 kicks in the closet if things get crazy on the street. But one technique you didn't list that I would include in any SD arsenal is an explosive middle-knuckle punch to the throat. Someone hit me LIGHTLY with one of these a week ago and it SUCKED. I can only imagine what the effect would be if hit full force.

 

Yes you are correct I am ITF related and taught by one of the best Masters here in Scotland who is very well respected and known throughout the world. His SD techniques was taught to him straight from Master Rhee Ki Ha and the General himself. Maybe I was not following what you were saying but I do understand that your knowledge in this is very very good. I am only stating a point that sparring (to ME) has made no real impact on my SD, my SD training has done this, or as you say my "Hosin Sol" in any sparring you do not get the likes of Jappyosul Tae, Dunjigi Wa Torojigi etc etc, but these techniques can only be effective if the student takes the time to constantly train with them under realistic conditions which will not include sparring.

 

Well I guess it depends on how we want to define "sparring" but if there are not activities where you hit and get hit in a way that is not pre-defined then you are certainly not prepared for an SD encounter.

 

I train on several actually. A synthetic wood floor which actually has high traction so in regular shoes shifting and sliding your feet is hindered, a wushu carpet which gives medium traction and allows probably the best footing by being not too slippery not too grippy, and a polished concrete floor which is slippery. In summer I also train outside on grass and on asphalt.

Let me say that you don't just automatically adapt. The first time you try sliding footwork on uneven grassy ground, or a superman punch on a slippery floor, you realize that certain ways of fighting work better on certain types of ground.

We also have a ramp at my school which allows you to train against someone fighting on a graded surface.

True. But my general point was that due to environmental constraints certain parts of the majority of martial arts must either be modified or tossed entirely.

I just tend to see more of that from TKD than say boxing because even in tight quarters and tight clothing a boxer can still box, a judoka can still throw, a MT fighter can still throw hands, elbows, and maybe knees, but you would certainly have trouble throwing any kind of circular headkick.

So while something like MT has kicks which would need to be tossed for SD in certain environments it has a lot more flexibility between environments because it also specialized in knees, elbows, and hands because of its emphasis in training and its sparring rule-set.

 

Yes I think that is what it all adds up to, it looks like we all have different definitions, mine is sparring with mits and footguards against an opponent in a controlled enviroment,there is also prearranged, semi free, free, model, foot technique and pre arranged free.

Our SD is attacks from all sides allbeit 1, 2 or 3 people with bats, knifes and so on.