To grab or not to grab, there is no question

We are taught to grab and sometimes pull in the very basic stage of learning certain techniques, but once you get beyond your black belt(or the first level of training), you start to get corrected on this tendency.

At every stage when we've gone back over the earlier level techniques, I've been shown a harder(but simpler) way to perform the same technique with less effort, and more effectiveness. It's interesting, because you will often see very high ranking foreign "shihan" demonstrating at a very simple level, when you'd expect something a bit closer to the masters.

The Quest videos and other taikai tapes are good reminders, but they usually don't teach everything from an advanced stage. Some things can be, others can be quite elementary. So the example of Ittekijime from the video wasn't how I learned it(at a higher level). Instead of grabbing and pulling(and waiting for him to pull back), we were taught to hook the lapel and use the force of our moving in(almost jumping forward) to "pull" him.

There's no question that a myriad of grips to the body and clothing are used, the question is what is the best way to do so? Instead of just grabbing and bringing your fingers into your palm, you get more effect by using variations of rotating the hand, hooking with the fingers, pressing with the palm, and other things that create leverage and connectedness without giving away as much.

I think we're pretty much saying the same thing though.

 

That's the paradox about ninjutsu. We are taught grabs and then told not to grab. Throws and told not to throw. Blocks and told that there are no blocks in martial arts. When you learn the actual techniques beyond the basic, it's really fascinating how deep they are. Take the Takagi way of stripping their hand from your gi for example. If you just pull on your jacket and try to force his hand off, a person with a strong grip can still hold on. However, if you slide your hand down your lapel and twist it the right way, the cloth itself helps with the action and makes his hand start moving in the direction of a wrist lock for you. Same thing with trapping his hand in your clothing like you mentioned. This kind of subtle difference is lost when one tries to grab and take the lock.

 

pretty much how one removes a lapel grab in judo.

 

I've trained both and the bjkn one is subtly different and a bit more refined, but all in all the judo guys do it against resistance all the time, bjkn guys do it vs a limp tshirt grab all the time.
Edit - the 2 vs 1 strip is now illegal in judo! Its to effective for competition.

 

i can try searching for you. but there's basically a couple ways to do it. one either grab your opponents hand (that's holding your lapel) and push with your own hands and pull back your body. that's the brute force method. you have to do the push/pull at the same time to get the right leverage, especially against someone that has a strong grip--i.e. a judoka.

but our judo instructor also teaches a couple twisting ways to get our of both the lapel and the sleeve grab. basically, use a twisting motion either clock or counter-clock wise that also uses the gi fabric to put pressure on your opponent and body mechanics to get them to release. and, if one were a ninjutsu practitioner or aikidoka, would get them nicely into a wrist lock.

 

PHP:

Would the more refined strip work better against a resisting opponent or is it another of those fancy but completely unworkable techniques?

 

Whoever said we dont grab in the Bujinkan really needs to get a grip!!!!

It is taught there are very specific reasons for grabbing and not grabbing, both in armour and also not in armour.

In general not grabbing is better as pushing is stronger than pulling, if you correctly align your body and balance that is and does not rely on finger strength and purchase.

But in armour - for instance it is taught grabbing the breast plate to take someones balance (can be applied to modern armour) to take their balance can be very practical.

Similarly Soke teaches grabbing the pectoral muscles in place of a breast plate if one is not present. Trust me I had the bruises to prove it!!!

This is part of Koshijutsu and can be very effective!

 

Tho two main concept are breaking against the inside of a lapel grip, and against the outside of a lapel grip, the main difference re judo ones are that they dont depend on the gi grip (obv as the grip would be on thinner material) and that a twist is applied either before or after.

I find them useful to control the ukes regrip options but really in application focusing on the twist instead of body motion and connection breaking is putting the cart before the horse.

 

Really?

That is very interesting, but the opposite of my own experience.

 

If the building were on fire, and the exit door was stuck would you prefer to try and pull the door open or push it? (if it potentially opened both ways)

 

it depends on if you were a veteran of the boat race or not and whether you got a running start or not.

 

Neither because it's probably hot and a kick will generate more force and place a barrier between my skin and the door.

But whether a push or pull generates more force is less important than if it generates more useful force and that is also dependent upon where you apply force. As an example pushing your lawnmower is less effective than pulling it because of the angle of the handle. Pushing some of the force will go down and make the lawnmower harder to move due to friction. Pulling some of the force would actually reduce the force due to friction. Now if you attached a rickshaw handle to it the reverse would be true but for the same reason.

It really comes down to individual musculature, recruitment patterns, and technique in application.

 

From a standing start using the hands, pull on it and drop my weight.

I can do that all day long, I can't bench for long at all.

 

It depends on whether your opponent's arm is straight or bend. If his arm is

- straight, you help him to straight more than he wants to.



- bend, you help him to bend more than he wants to. His contact point will become your "free" contact point.