To grab or not to grab, there is no question

Just to clarify the original post.

Are you saying trying to control someones wrist / arm (but not cloth grips) only with grip strength is a bad idea?

 

Doesn't matter where or what you're gripping.

I was explaining the reasons why we are taught to hook, clamp, or catch instead of grabbing. And this from guy's who have hands like vices, yet they suggest a better way than just using their crushing grip when dealing with other human beings.

 

So gi chokes, lapel pulling,and trachae grips are all out?

 

Trying to think of a technique that has lapel pulling in it but off the top of my head, I can't. Gi chokes are done(especially in Takagi), as is gripping different parts of the body, again though we don't grab in the conventional sense of the word.

Matsukaze and kimon dori from Shinden Fudo ryu, and Muso Dori from Gyokko ryu are obvious examples of body "grips" where you don't grab. Even the basic wrist locks can be done without grabbing as you get better.

Think of grabbing a guy's wrist as hard and as long as you can. Let's say he's got his right hand bent at the elbow(his thumb pointing to his right). Even though it probably hurts, he can still hit you with his left hand, kick you with either feet, and more obviously and importantly, his balance isn't that compromised.

Same scenario but move your fingers like you are rotating those chinese balls you sometimes see in old kung fu movies(yes there are pictures of walnuts in a few old Hatsumi books that are for this purpose). Top fingers contact first, then your hand rotates downwards and forwards as you grip with the fingers. This motion will lock his wrist and compromise his balance, and your fingers will bite into his hand more while requiring less strength on your part. You can also manipulate his balance better. Batsugi has this kind of omote gyaku in it.

Here's a crappy video that still kind of shows what I meant about not grabbing the elbow in an arm bar. Ignore the technique, just look at his arm position during the final arm bar(his hand should be pointing towards the other guy's face but other than that, it is more or less what I was trying to describe).

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcjAfeLlYsw"]Makoto Dojo Chi No Maki Te-hodoki Uchi Mawashi Dori - YouTube[/ame]

I hope this answers David Harrison's question.

 

I think we both agree in principle but your example of what is gripping and what isnt is a little unclear.

Therea a tonne of throws done from lapel grips. As there is with elbow material grips, but when done well I dont think your example of gripping would apply.

 

Which example?

To me, there is a difference between grabbing, and hooking, clamping, or catching. One involves a certain concentration, surrendering of freedom, and time that the others don't. The mechanics are also different, not just the results.

Sadly, there aren't good examples of the latter that I could easily find online, but there are lots of good examples of the pitfalls of grabbing.

 

i believe this might fit the bill:
[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TvRB20kBHcs[/ame]

from a karate/kung fu perspective, we also differentiate friction grabs from full grips. in the full grip you're doing something with your hand (and it's likely your attention is on your hand), whereas in the other type, you do it with positioning and the lockdown is incidental, but you do nothing except "be in the way" rather than "grabbing".

*crawls back under his rock*

 

Yes, the first part of that video was very similar to what I was trying to describe. In a lot of the higher level techniques, the idea is exactly as you said, instead of trying to grab or do something, you just let it happen by being in the right place at the right time. The part where he points his finger, his arm is still perpendicular to the opponents, if his hand was facing the opponents head a bit more, he could strike while maintaining the arm bar too.

A lot of arts teach one to grab a wrist, especially in things like weapons attacks. It makes sense, but can actually get you hurt worse. If the line of your tiger's mouth(the opening between your thumb and forefinger) is orientated correctly, you can apply a lot of pressure in different directions without grabbing, and it is faster and much harder to read.

 

Here is an example of "lapel pulling". It's a "door open" move used to set up other moves such as "single leg".

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOa2GTEDf1g&feature=youtu.be"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOa2GTEDf1g&feature=youtu.be[/ame]


You can use it in no-gi environment as well.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju7lYkoc05M"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju7lYkoc05M[/ame]

 

i believe aikido uses that for many of its techniques. convos here on map come to mind where coin sized bruises were mentuoned to be caused by yonkyo applied full force (tiger's mouth to the radial nerve, basically). taiji also avoids full grabs like the plague because the focus on grabbing creates tension and screws with the full body mechanics at the arm level, and northern mantis almost exclusively uses a twisting friction grab with the last three fingers, and mild pressure with thumb and index.

 

I meant in our curriculum from the ryu that make up the Takamatsuden. Grabbing and then pulling something goes against our philosophy. There is a technique called yuki chigai in Takagi Yoshin ryu, where you basically catch the guy's wrist as he walks by. Then you arm bar him and throw him down. At the elementary level, you grab his hand, but as you get better, you try to catch it as it is swinging naturally and have to match your walking and entering with his walking motion.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBcW3UPXf4c"]Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu - YouTube[/ame]
At 1:30 seconds(Genbukan video).

 

Your definition of grab may be to close all 5 fingers. My definition of grab can be just 2 fingers by using the tiger mouth (thumb and forefinger). The main purpose of grab is to "shake" your opponent's body to force him to commit on something. Whether you need to use all 5 fingers, or just 2 fingers (tiger mouth with thumb and forefinger), most of the time, you will achieve the same result. For example, you can use thumb and forefinger to grab on your opponent's elbow joint. The rest of your 3 other fingers are not grabbing much any way. Also a loose grab (only use thumb and forefinger) can create more "shocking" than the 5 fingers tight grab. There are a lot of minor detail in the grab.

In no-gi environment, sometime you may want to dig all 5 fingers into your opponent's shin/muscle, a power grip can be handy.

 

Some throws require grabbing on the jacket/Gi. Without "grab", the following technique will not exist. The interest question to ask is, "Since this technique won't work in no-jacket/Gi environment, should people spend valuable training time to develop it?

IMO, there are

- summer time sand beach combat skill (no-jacket/Gi), and
- winter time ski slop combat skill (with jacket/Gi).

Both will have value.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Da95aBePHg&feature=youtu.be"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Da95aBePHg&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

 

YKW can i ask though is there any point in training gi techniques when they don't work without the GI? No GI techniques work fine with a gi so would it not make more sense to get more proficient in those techniques as they will work in both situations?*

Obviously that is assuming that combat ability is the sole intent there*, and of course here are plenty of other valid reasons to train that would not be affected by that thought process. I'm not saying anyone is doing anything wrong just playing devils advocate here really.

*edit - working on the theory of fewer techniques drilled to a higher level [insert Bruce Lee quote here]

**just reread your post and i think actualy thats exactly what you were getting at lol

 

Because in a gi (or any really ) environment, very often what you dont know, is what finishes you.

I often just wrestle in judo (automatically this disadvantages me) if my grip is damaged, but its incredibly important I know and prevent what they're doing with that grip.

 

Anyone wearing a shirt is wearing a gi (although some shirts are more useful than others). So unless you live in Newcastle, you don't need to worry about a huge number of shirtless people attacking you

 

Yes, that is my definition, because that is what a grab is. Closing all five fingers, usually with the fingers curling into the palm. We are taught to push the palm to the fingers, and not try to grab on tight to something for the reasons already mentioned.

If you are catching something in between your open and extended thumb and forefinger, that is not a grab. We aren't taught to force our opponent to do anything in our arts, usually we let him try to do what he wants and assist him in not making it work. By "trying" to "force" another person to do something against their will, you are in conflict and anything you "try" will be easily read and they will want to actively counter your efforts. This kind of philosophy goes against most of the principles of our arts, and that kind of training should be out of one's system by their black belt stage.

Incidentally, you can shake the opponent without grabbing.

That video was basically a grab and pull the guy around like you see from schoolyard fights as a kid, with an added trip at the end. Why would one want to learn a technique like that when there are much more efficient and effective gi throws to begin with?:dunno: The amount of effort, and strength required to make that work makes it harder to pull off unless you are better and stronger than the opponent to start off with.

Value can be found in a lot of ways, but if a technique doesn't teach you principles and movements that you can use in another way, it isn't very helpful. If my best technique only works if he throws a roundhouse kick and the opponent throws a front kick, I'm in trouble. If you can't figure out a way to make that technique work without having to grab and pull on the guy, what do you do when those aren't options? If I can do the same technique on both sides of my body, no matter which hand he attacks with(straight or hook as well), it is universally applicable(with tweaking of course).

But if you are doing something that requires a grip and you can't get it, you are finished anyway. What if it's cold and your hands are frostbitten? Or you cut your hand cooking and can't grab properly? Knowledge is always a good thing, but so is creativity and ingenuity.