Steven Elliot? [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phFYLA-SX_s"]YouTube[/ame] EDIT: Oops, sorry. When I posted this, I could only see the first page of the thread.....
Yeah but you have to realize that they're wearing 16 oz gloves, they have a standing eight count, and a ten count - basically lots of things in the sport of boxing to keep a fight going. That isn't the case with MMA. The amount of punches that a boxer absorbs in one fight is much more than an MMA fighter will, mainly because of the 4 oz gloves, no standing eight count, and the refs who are actually concerned about fighter's safety. No one has died in MMA to date. Not so with boxing. Well in all fairness, what you describe comes down to either fighting in a more realistic simulation and taking some more punishment (MMA) or fighting in a simulation with lots of rules and protection and taking less punishment (Olympic TKD). Which one will prepare you more for that street?
I would much rather be involed in a "street fight" with a TKDist than a MMAist. Fights happen in 3 ranges and a MMAist trains all 3 where as a TKDist trains 1.
Which 3 ranges are we talking? TKD also trains elbows and knees, but pretty much no ground work if that's what you're talking about. MMA, from what I gather for the most part, is extremely good at giving its students the chance to actually practice its moves against another living and resisting person. This I think is where the MMA guy would have the biggest advantage over a TKD guy, same goes for MT against TKD. As for 'the street', I think a good tKD class will gear you towards more varied situations, such as 2-on-1 attacks, knife defence, etc. But again, these need to be trained effectively or they're worthless. But getting back to TKD in MMA, anyone here going to SENI this year?
In all fairness which one will prepare you more to finish an opponent with a kick? Restrictive rules are put in place for both safety and to promote a certain skill. It is sort of like tying your right hand behind your back to develop your left hand. An example. I grappled with someone who took three years of MMA classes. In the classes he took they didn't separate grappling training and striking training. They did both together all the time. I was surprised how limited his submission and submission defense was (particularly with a gi/kurtka). He was a big guy, good athlete, moved really well but he had never trained in a pure grappling environment. From day one he had to worry about punches on the ground etc. He never got to chance to be 'protected' by the rules so he could purely focus on the grappling side of things. TKD is no different. Our rules (even ITF) promote kicking. If everytime you thought about trying a high kick someone hit you with a low kick, etc it would be difficult to focus on that skill and develop it. You see this in all 'specialized' martial arts (even BJJ). By focusing on these skills you might not be as ready for this infamous 'street' but your better in your area of expertise. In my own training I'll probably never be good at knees in the clinch, straight boxing, or even integrating kicking with a good takedown defense. But in the areas I've chosen to focus I hope to know them well.
I’ve done 7 (I think) full rules MMA fights and the worst I’ve had so far has been a black eye and some bruises. I’ve actually been hurt much more in semi contact competitions over the years. Yes there are risks involved in full contact fighting, no question about that but I think due to the nature of something like MMA, the risks are actually smaller than say boxing or muay thai, due to the average amounts of punches to the head being landed being a lot lower. I remember Chuck Liddell saying in an interview something like: A boxer gets hit the head like 200 times in a fight, I haven’t been hit 200 times in my life! If you are going to make a comparison you should compare like with like, which you aren’t doing here. How about 15 years competing in high level WTF competitions, with full contact kicks to the head. You’re ‘traditional’ Sambo class sounds very similar to my ‘modern’ sub wrestling one!! Meaningless terms!! Tapping early is just common sense. Even when me and my training partners are getting ready to compete and are doing hard rounds then tapping early is always the norm. Generally as soon as a person gets the arm straightened (or whatever) then the stop themselves and don’t put the arm under pressure. Again you guys are making the mistake that ‘modern’ or ‘MMA’ training needs be by definition hard, rough and only suitable for young people, which won’t be the case in any half decent club, as long of course that the club isn’t just focused on competitive athletes. There are only three ranges to any fight. I’ve seen TKD clubs do knees and elbows in patterns, or in other static drills. I’ve never seen any club actually train them properly. Doesn’t sound like very good training TBH. If you are striking when you grapple all the time then I think you’re grappling ability is always likely to be very limited.
I didn't. That's why I said which one would prepare you more. If one was the street, I wouldn't have asked the rhetorical question. It's like having two simulations - ie the Princeton Review and Kaplan. Which is better at preparing you for the MCAT? Neither is the real thing, as implied by the question in the first place. : /
He's probably saying striking, clinch, ground. Most mainstream TKD doesn't do the last two. Not only living and resisting person, but depending what kind of TKD you are talking about, different environment too.
Well, I was addressing his point about injuries having the potential to make a fighter incapable of fighting, and using that line of reasoning to justify a less realistic environment for sparring. But your point is good too. Although for BJJ, some might argue (some being flashlock) that it has an answer for every range that can be drilled live with resistance, so it is not so specialized. But it's a good point that even if you train everything, you're not going to be as good in some things. So does that warrant increasing rules for your sparring environment in order to create opportunities to train that which you are good at? Or should everything be as random and live to the extent that the law allows so that you can work in the most realistic scenario as possible? Personally, I don't see what's wrong with doing both.
Ha ha...well a BJJ guy just knocked out Mirko with a high kick. So now they have officially taken over ALL martial arts. Nothing is left to us poor TKD guys. In all seriousness, however, what do Judo guys joke about when it comes to BJJ? They say, "Those guys don't know how to fall and their takedowns are crappy." Similarly BJJ guys joke about the newaza (ground work) of most Judo guys. There are even videos online of the famous Rickson Gracie sparring Judo guys (before the Gracies were known) and getting thrown every time by the Judo guy...but of course ending up with the armbar anyway. Yes there is a way to practice live at all ranges...reality is, however, that we are limited by time. This is how martial arts got divided up into specialized groups in the first place. I totally agree with you. It has been shown time and time again that a well-rounded guy usually beats the highly specialized guy in a match. But sometimes to build a foundation in something (enough to be well-rounded) you need to be protected by rules to promote that skill. IE not getting punched while trying to learn submissions. That is why I say styles like karate/TKD are very good at laying the foundations for a good stand-up stylist. To get beyond the foundations we often have to be thrust in a format with less rules. As we get older, however, we often say, "There is nothing wrong with working on that foundation!!! I'm too old for that other crap!"
That is every competitive sport actually. First rule of competition is to show up to the competition healthy. I've seen videos of Henderson of Team Quest training for MMA matches. Their training looks similar more similar to semi-contact continuous sparring than to anything else. Just taps to let the guy know 'you're open here, you're open there'. Of course they are sparring with takedowns and such. And as I mentioned before I've trained with guys who compete in smaller shows (and have trained for a long time at places like Team Quest) and the sparring wasn't all that different from a semi-contact TKD class. You tap each other a little harder, but most of that was from not having any women, children, or older people around. I'd agree with you here. When I end up in the clinch I don't even think about throwing knees (probably because I'm either trying to take someone down or defend the takedown) and I've been doing TKD for 20+ years. Knees are definitely part of TKD, but because it is not part of our regular sparring we don't instinctively throw them. I'll even go so far as to say that it is fairly easy to safely train with knees in sparring as long as you don't have a jackass for a partner. But there is a long-standing prejudice against knees and elbows in the karate based styles. Have you seen that video of Benny the Jet Judo throwing the guy in his first MT match? Beautiful throw. He was so ****ed about the guy kneeing and elbowing him (which he though of as dirty and dishonorable) that he did a huge hip throw on the guy when they clinched. Pretty much ended the match right there. It was! Guy didn't even know what a scissor sweep was. I got him with that and transitioned to armbar and he was like, "What was that?" But in his defense many of the guys from the school he went to have had MMA matches and done quite well in small shows. They even have records like the fastest knockout time and such. Their classes consist of bagwork, GnP on the bag, and then full out free sparring with takedowns and strikes on the ground. They just focus on being heavy hitters on their feet and on the ground. In a pure grappling match he couldn't use any of his tools. Plus he wasn't used to someone using the gi against him.
True You could train with less rules but with the same level of control. It’s no harder to do MMA sparring with limited actual contact, than it is to do TKD sparring. MMA/Boxing/Any FC style sparring with controlled contact is not the same as semi contact sparring. What works well in semi contact competitive sparring is a different thing entirely than just keep the contact at a low level. I spar FC style but when limited contact all the time, what I don’t do (except sometimes for fun!) is to start throwing stuff that’ll only work in a light contact setting, like loads of side kicks. Different from any semi contact TKD class I’ve ever seen. That similarity is controlled contact, that’s about it. It is indeed. Sounds like standard ‘toughman’ training. It’s training that will develop tough, but technically very limited athletes.
I should have clarified that I meant the level of contact. The sparring is very different. You can't throw chains of kicks. Nor 'feeler' kicks where you throw a couple of kicks just to check distance. And I've already mentioned before the problem with keeping my feet too close together. I've been taken down numerous times. Frustrates me. And while my ground game works well against a guy with 'toughman' training it still needs a lot of work. Too much work to willingly get taken down by someone. But again this is not a weakness that is limited to TKD. We saw everyone from Kyokushin guys to MT guys getting taken down and submitted in the early UFCs. And, as mentioned above, even Judo guys get made fun of for their lack of newaza. When it comes to kicking (and to a less extent punching) my TKD serves me well. In sparring I purposefully whiffed a kick over a guys head as he shot in to take me down. One of the people watching said, "He would have knocked you out with that kick." The guy who shot in disagreed. So they had him hold a pad for me and I hit it. His eyes got real big when he saw the kind of power I could generate. Before this weekend I'd have said that no one will have that tool as well developed as someone who spent years specializing it. But maybe that skill isn't that hard to develop! Gonzaga did knock out Crocop after all!!! :cry: My point is that people seem to get down on TKD because it is specialized. The ITF variant very much along the same lines as Karate. Yet many other styles are specialized. Someone who is a good athlete in TKD will come to something like MMA with almost the exact same skills as someone from Kyokushin Karate. It is a good standup style that gives you a good place to start.
This threads come along a bit since I was last able to post, so if theres any discussions I was in the middle of please repost for me. Anyway, saw this the others day: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phFYLA-SX_s"]YouTube[/ame] and thought it may be of interest. Stuart
Why didn't the TKD guy try to corkscrew out of the triangle? If I can step over the head I can usually break it by corkscrewing. Was the cage in the way? Thoughts Tim?
