Thinking about Aikido

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Music Man, Dec 7, 2015.

  1. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Yeah that's a pretty good point. Definitely try it though!
     
  2. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Seconded. Unfortunately that video is a display of very weak aikido.
     
  3. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    7:06 - 7:11 is irimi nage.
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugsS2_Z0wpA"]Excellent Aikido Demonstration Mori Shihan - YouTube[/ame]

    And at 0:32-0:36 Koyo does it here.
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P67-RJXPKTE"]Makotokai Aikido Scotland -Demo 1 - YouTube[/ame]

    This is not a helpful throw in a competition because you've broken the connection with the opponent. There's no good follow-up other than, perhaps, to "dog pile" him and hope for side control.

    But, to quote Makotokai, aikido was not designed for a competitive match at a predefined time and place. It was designed to build a strong body and an unbreakable spirit that will stand up to a surprise attack. So it doesn't bother me that it's seldom seen in competitions.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2016
  4. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Why do you have to break connection with the opponent? Why not just follow it to the ground?
     
  5. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    The nature of irimi nage is such that there's a gap -- there's space between you and him as he falls. Making space is how wrestlers escape, so ... As an option, you could turn it into a rear choke instead of a throw. Or, you're right, follow him to the ground. You'll be on top and now it's a BJJ scramble to see who can wiggle first. Absolutely.
     
  6. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    I don't see why there needs to be space though - it seems like the throw is generated through torque on the shoulder. If I just maintain control of that arm it seems like I could get a good americana/kimura off the takedown without allowing for a scramble. What worries me more is the entrance and leaving that fellas other hand open - it seems like it would require a lot of precision to execute compared to other judo throws or wrestling takedowns.

    For reference I've taken like... two or three months of aikido, if that.
     
  7. Music Man

    Music Man Valued Member

    Thanks for the thoughts on the Aikido school. As someone who has never done Aikido before I'm not really sure what to look for in a good school.

    I live near northern Virginia and there are some Aikido schools there I can check out. But Fredericksburg is much closer to me. My options here are Boxing, Muay Thai (I'm not a fan of kicking though) BJJ, Japanese jujitsu.
     
  8. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    No one charges at you full force enough to make iriminage viable as a one step throw on its own IMO and it's not secure enough to allow the second step in the chain of basic iriminage offbalance →step to throw. I find irminage useful as an off balancing concept but better completed with a leg sweep.

    -If you gain the entry on top you have iriminage position to off balance and can sweep the close leg. If they regain balance the close arm is perfect for wakigatame.

    -If you do a split entry (their arm above yours) you can do a seatbelt control which sticks you to them securely, and then sweep out the close leg with the option to drop into kesagatame or to let them fall and take a different top control position. If they start to regain balance before you get the seatbelt on you still have the close arm for wakigatame.

    Wakigatame also lets you flow back into either of those iriminage positions if they start to counter your counter, and lets you use a host of other joint locks for the same thing which is why it's so handy there.
     
  9. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    :thinking: Hmm ... No, it's the spine bending backwards.
    1:18-1:34 here
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5wrkVx9okQ"]Morihiro Saito's Explosive Iriminage at the 1978 All-Japan Aikido Demonstration - YouTube[/ame]

    Tissier does it with more grounding energy (he brings the attacker lower) which I'm not a fan of, but his form is very clear. You can see the attacker's spines bending backwards, particularly at 1:39. That's why they fall.
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UjYxpDcMsA"]Aikido: Christian Tissier - Iriminage - YouTube[/ame]


    I don't know about that. Judo throws aren't easy, either.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2016
  10. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Not sure what kind of solo training that Aikido may provide. At least for MT, you can still roundhouse kick on your heavy bag at your age of 70 and still keep your body in shape.
     
  11. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    You're evil. I like you. :evil: That's a bad fall for uke.
     
  12. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Why thank you :evil:

    Actually it really ends up being a lot more controllable and variable. You can either smash them down the way shioda does with irimitsuki, land on their ribs in kesa (for the split→seatbelt), or pull them into you a little more as they fall to soften the landing.

    All in all I find it works a LOT better with less need for commitment on uke's part and less chance for them to escape.
     
  13. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    EEP, I think I was watching the wrong throw. Thanks for the clarification.
     
  14. greg1075

    greg1075 Valued Member

    That's how I did all my leg sweeps to other upper belts when I still did jjj. That's probably how I would do it in a sd situation too. I haven't seen anyone else teach or use that variation.
     
  15. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Id visit them all, do a trial class and then decide.
     
  16. Music Man

    Music Man Valued Member

    So far I've taken an aikido class, a muay thai class, and a boxing class. The boxing class was my favorite by far.

    The instructor knows about my tendonitis in both of my wrists. So he wrapped my wrists a little extra when we did the lesson.

    I have to say that one of the main things I enjoyed about the lesson was how intuitive everything was. Maybe it's because I did muay thai years ago and some of the pivoting when punching is the same. But for the most part I took to what were doing like a fish to water.
    And I like the indisputable fact that boxing is street effective for self defense. And it's also a killer workout!

    I plan to sign up for lessons twice a week. It's only 95.00 a month which is also nice!
     
  17. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Can you elaborate on that a bit further? I can see lots in boxing that is excellent for self defence, but also a good deal that trains some rather bad habits and biomechanics.
     
  18. EdiSco

    EdiSco Likes his anonymity

    Could you please explain further? I do boxing but I agree Muay thai is more well rounded but a good combo would be Muay Thai and BJJ?
     
  19. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I really like boxing, but from my perspective there are certain things it does that can leave you exposed when you transplant its approaches into a different arena. In particular I'm thinking of the modern use of the gloves in guarding the head and in striking.

    In this video of one of my warm ups at my recent seminar in Calgary, Hannibal and I illustrate one of the issues of relying on the position of a glove guard and bobbing without greater head protection when those gloves are removed. This applies to gloved boxing as opposed to old fashioned bare knuckle boxing approaches and is a context related issue that can easily be 'fixed' if you train for it.

    (post 25 page 2 of Visiting the Canadian Mappers)

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5-dgFCNozI"]Practical Karate for Jeet Kune Do 1 - YouTube[/ame]


    The secondary issue vis a vis boxing is fist formation and impact surface. Boxing teaches you to throw excellent powerful punches, however without wraps and without the gloves those same punching angles and striking surfaces are more likely to cause damage to the striker if you use them without gloves (hence the term boxers break being common parlance for a 5th metacarpal injury). Now while that is a low percentage likelihood for most people, if your living does depend on your hands then it can be an issue. I have a pinned right fifth metacarpal as a result of an unanticipated knock to my hand in training and it does effect my dexterity and I will never be able to play the piano as well as I could before.

    This video by Karate Dr explains the dynamics of hand impact with regard to anatomy.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byWWemtlWXE"]anatomy of fist and skull - YouTube[/ame]
     
  20. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    If you like the Aikido type material but have concerns over efficacy then again a decent FMA place is probably what you want. The joint locks and takedowns use tighter spirals and make greater use of hip bumps and leg sweeps, and are taught in a striking and wrestling context. I also like the Filipino "boxing" as a combative H2H system.
    The Muay Thai isn't pure Muay Thai it's STX which for striking I prefer. It also contains some Filipino boxing elements, and the weakness of a lot of FMA places is the don't use a contact based training method, which doing STX helps to alleviate.
    The school does STX, CSW and FMA, which on paper would fulfill most of your needs in one place.
     

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