No, not at all my friend. Not at all. I am curious talk about what you would define as "occult", only for the purpose of discussion. I am genuinely interested as I myself have a strong background in world religions.
"Occult" =/= "Cult". World of difference. Stop the sweeping generalizations about what "most people" believe, please. Because I happen to fall into the category that a MAer does carry himself better than this! A lot of people do, misguided or not!
"occult" / "cult" are diffrent, ok. point taken, i'll admit that. i never said anyone didnt, I was saying that it isn't the measure of an MAer in any way.
Yes and getting back to the original thread which I believe was whether or not Martial Arts was occult, not whether or not Christianity was a cult or cult-like. But first to Tekkengod, I would submit that in your experiences you may have seen Christianity practiced in a cult like manner, and that saddens me. I have been to a few churches where I walked away feeling grateful that it wasn't my home church and grateful to get out quite frankly. People in cults generally feel that they must work for God's approval, they can be very controlling and manipulative. This can describe some Christians I'm sad to say. However this does not describe all Christians and all experiences with Chirstianity. So I can only speak for myself and my experience, I'm not in a cult. I love my church and I love what God is doing with my life through my relationship with Christ. Ok, so back to the Taoism point. In the folk religion that the philosophy came out of, the following things were common: divination, using charms to ward off evil spirits, incantations and fortune telling. These are actually practiced today by some, not only in Taoism but in mainstream america. Please keep in mind that I consider something like reading your horoscope an occult practice. So we are looking at it from two different perspective.
I like this guy! Real devious though, kinda like a lawyer. HA! I live in Arizona: We go to hell just to cool off. (Isn't hell near Pittsburgh?) Occult, once again it's a null word. Christianity would be "occult" if you were raised as a Buddhist. If you understood Daoism then you would know that it is a philosophy not a religion. The problem is that this literature tries to manipulate views with inaccurate and loaded terms like "occult". Simply, a very ominus way of refering to the unknown.
I have yet to be to a church that dosen't make me very glad i'm not religious. some how the bold text dosen't strike you as something an occultic person or a cult member would say?
I study both of these arts (well, I'm waiting for medical issues to clear up before I can get back to Ninjutsu), and I can honestly say that there is nothing at all "occult" or "dark" about anything we are taught in class. Our Tai Chi Chuan class sometimes ends with a reading from a book of Daoist meditations, and I have heard nothing in these meditations that is incompatible with Christianity. Just my two cents worth.
Well as before, I am a Jewish Martial Artist, and I have spoken to my rabbi every now and then (hes awesome, hes an Air Marshal and plays Unreal Tournament 2004) and the topic came up , he said that in his expierience, the eastern thought forms and ideas of the world may differ and or contradict Judaism, but he pointed out to me, that as long as they promote peace and generally benevolent behavior then there is no reason to consider them occult or bad in any way. He said that if the above if true, then your beliefs do not conflict, their simply worded differently.
I guess Tekkengod is basically saying that Christianity is cult-like and I sound like I'm in a cult because anyone who would put their trust in Christ is brainwashed. Is that safe to asume? My comment of saying that I love my church and what God is doing in my life through my relationship with Christ seems to Tekkengod like something that someone who is brainwashed would say. Having a relationship with Christ does not make someone a cult member. I will prove my point. Cult members are in fact brainwashed, they believe what ever the leader of the cult tells them. So if Christianity is a cult then why don't I believe the same thing that the guy who wrote this book believes? Obviously I do not, since I stated at the begining that I'm a martial artist. So if I'm a martial artist and a Christian then how can I be in the same cult as the guy who wrote the book that started this thread? Impossible. If Christianity was a cult then we would believe the same things and we don't or I would not practice martial arts or he wouldn't have written the book. The popular cults here in the US (Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, Hare Krishna, Transcendental Meditation, and the Unification Church) all preach the same thing...you can work your way to Salvation. But the Bible says that the just shall live by faith. I have faith in Christ, not in works, therefore I am justified before God, therefore I will live for eternity in the afterlife. No church, no pastor, no priest...no man will tell me if I am saved. I know I am, and that's between God and me. No one lays a burden on me that I have seen laid upon the people who join cults, their lives are hell.
Ok, fine, but for the words of TekkenGod, if you want to call his belifiefs occult, he will be able to call your occult, with equal truth and clout. Both are arguable points, that by my own expierience, peeter out just before the finish line at the same end. Fine your a christian, thats wonderfull, and tekkengod will have beliefs and thats plenty fine too, but to call one a cult, then the other can be called a cult with equal reason. To think that one is more cult-like then the other is an admission of ignorance. Claiming either is a cult, ends up in the the original being accused of cult-hood, and since both points can be proven to be equally true. Thisl ine of thinking will get you nowhere. Secondly, simply to state the obvious, your point that if your religion is a cult then why do you have different beliefs, is moot, for the once again, obvious reasons. (There are several different branches of christianity, thus you worship differently then Russel k. Tardo, if you didnt, then you wouldnt be doing MA's.) I have a friend, whom I spend quite a bit of time hanging out with, who is a Jehova Witness, he dosnt like it, but he applys to the customs of his parents. They often get in fights with each other though. Why? Because he dosnt do the same things they do, and he often gets grounded for not following the ways of Jehova. And thirdly, his parents argue with each other because they have different views. Jehova's arent supposed to vote, but they do, and their congregation hates them for it. So if Jehova's witness's are cults as you say? Then why is there this differentiation of opinion? Because people are people, its pointless to say that a cult believes the same thing, because they dont. I mean, that last sentence seems to imply a lot of knowledge of cults, you seem to know that anyone in a cult leads a hellish life. Do you have any prior expieriences?
There will always be those who naysay based on limited facts, half truths, and outright lies that are formed by prejudice. This happens when MMA people bash TMA people and vice versa. It happens when Northern Mantis bashes Southern Mantis and vice versa. It happens when Catholics bash Protestants and vice versa. One of the biggest examples I've seen of this happened in my freshman year of college. I was a student of Purdue Statewide School of Technology at their branch in Anderson, IN. They were located on the campus of Anderson University and many of the non-technical classes like english and math were taught in AU classes by AU instructors. AU is owned and operated by the Church of God. As you can guess, the library there is full of material written from a hard line Christian perspective. I have nothing against the Church of God in general - no more than I have against any other formal religion. Anyway, in my freshman year, I wrote a paper about the subject we're discussing here as it pertained to Dungeons & Dragons - which, at that point, I had been playing regularly for several years. During my research I found literature in the AU library from their perspective on the game. WOW! According to this literature, D&D was a tool of Satan that had Satanic rituals outlined in its pages and detailed instructions for performing human sacrifices and harnessing dark powers to perform magic feats. Detailed incantations and rituals to summon and control lesser demons. Etc. Now, at that point in my life, I owned all of the D&D manuals on the market and knew the bulk of them by heart (I could cite page numbers for where to find specific information and quote specific rules and such). Yes, I was proud to be a nerd without a life Actually, I had a very active social life and D&D was just one small part of it but I also had a good memory for trivial details about things like the game. Anyway, having read all the D&D manuals cover to cover I knew for a fact that absolutely nothing in the article I'd found in the AU library was based in any sort of fact. It was obvious to me that the author had never so much as cracked the spine on one of the books - probably afraid he wasn't strong enough to resist the temptations and worried that he'd end up damning his soul. It was humorous in a pathetic sort of way to me. The article was nothing more than a "boogey-man" story to scare people and incite little witch hunts - i.e.: kids getting in trouble by their parents (who'd read the article) for mentioning the game or being forbidden from seeing friends, etc. The saddest part about it was that I know there were probably hundreds of people - maybe more - who had read that article (it was in an issue of the Church of God's standard newsletter type literature) and believed it 100%. Fortunately, my english teacher - an AU professor - was open-minded and graded the paper on it quality rather than on whether she personally agreed with it or not (and I have no idea how she actually felt about the game). But the simple and sad fact is that this phenomenon is one of the more disturbing and pathetic traits of the human race. When it has been taken to extremes, it has led to things like the Crusades and the Holocaust and tangentially ties into slavery and all sorts of other ugly faces of humanity. Mike
Which is very true, but I must say, I kinda wasnt able to figure out who you were talking to in that post. It would be a big help if you could tell me. BTW, Im the DM (Dungeon Master) for my grades D&D group, I can see where your coming from. I just figured that to sum it up in my previous post would be best.
It wasn't really directed at anyone specifically. It was just a general observation on the topic. If it had been directed at anyone specifically, I would have quoted their post Mike
hmm....thats a good point, but i think most people would agree that Atheisim has FAR less in common than christianity, by a long shot. I was about to ask the same question.
appologies for not quoting or responding to comments on an individual basis, but some general points; occult, although interpreted as meaning witchcraft, psychism and all the other 'weirder' aspects of life, actually just means 'hidden' the majority of religions have an 'occult' aspect, implying on one level that there are teachings and practices which are carried out within the framework of the mainstream religion, but tend to emphasise particular aspects and these practices are usually passed by word of mouth on an individual basis as the intricacies and nuances of meaning can only be imparted this way. In the main, these aspects are about the individual developing their own personal relationship with the deity of the religion, un-mediated by a priesthood. Christianity has the system known as Gnosticism, popular hundreds of years ago, but suppressed by the mainsteam Church. Islam gave rise to the system known as Sufism, a system based upon ascetic practices (meaning the individual lives a life of seclusion and discipline in hope of deepening their relationship with the divine) In Japan, Mikkyo Buddhism evolved to include more 'mystical' practices. In Judaism there is the system of belief known as the Kabbalah, again a complex system of belief which has often been misrepresented as a magical system. The commonality between all of these is that they are generally misrepresented and condemed as systems which are not 'true faiths'. However this condemnation comes from the administrators of the mainstream factions of the religions and, while this condemnation may, in some cases be made in good faith, it often has historical roots in the doctrine of control the religion imposes upon the 'flock'. If each of us has a personal relationship with our creator, then the job of the preist is no longer required. We find we need no church to connect with the mysteries of life and we need no interpretation of the 'word of god' because we see that such concepts are alien to our natural state. In short, we become at peace within ourselves, knowing that the universe supports us in all our acts which do not impinge upon the rights and freedoms of others. Even if we are watching TV, drinking beer, playing computer games and learning and practicing MA's. And (as a ninjutsu practitioner), i must ask Philosopher59 if he could enlighten me as to what 'occult' practices are taught within a ninjutsu dojo? I suspect that the comment was made in relation to the myriad of myths surrounding the art and not from direct experience of modern day ninjutsu training. However, i'm open-minded and would just like some clarity about what substantiates that view-point. Regarding Mr Tardo's qualifications, which were being considered y'day; i made an error; According to the back of the pamphlet... Russell K Tardo ThB, M.Min, D.Min would these be, ThB - Bachelor of Theology; M.Min - Master of Ministeries; D.Min - Doctor of Ministries?
yeah, thats pretty much what i'm saying, christianity is very cult-like. yeah, in my opinon, most people who put their faith in christ are indeed brainwashed, thats the point of brainwashing, you don't know about it. Thats how christianity gains and keeps followers, its kind of a repetative methodical imposed will. think about it, religious parents don't usually give their children a choice, they are beaten with the same material that their parents were and are condemed for thinking outside the leather bound box. so when they have absolutely no chance to learn about other beliefs, (which are usually much easier to believe anyway} and are branded for being unfaithful until its too later and the mind is crammed full of what ever non-sense the parent instills in them. hecne, they are now one more member of the super special save jesus evangelistic team. Brainwashed. That is true of cults, they believe what ever the leader tells them. but ask yourself this, HONESTLY.....do you not believe the bible to be either A. The word of God. or B. Entierly Factual. ? its one or the other. and either one puts you in a situation where you fully and entierly accept what the bible says as true. so in essence, the bible is the leader of this cult. and if you saw and spoke to Jesus, would you not take in every single word he spoke as an absolute truth? see. brainwashing meathods, and cult-like activity.
nicely put tekken; my biggest problem with Christianity isn't with Christ. He seemed like a pretty cool sort of guy. You know, he'd go round healing people for free, he'd share his wisdom and his experience with anyone who asked. He always had an cool little story to pass the time and make people smile. He was even active politically, standing up for things he felt in his heart were wrong...like the money-lenders and the temple...chucking them out and saying religion isn't about profit, so stop corrupting our faith etc My problem is with what came next...God TV, send me a dollar and i'll send you salvation crap. The people who administer the religion living in wealth while the truely faithful go to third world countries and get their hands dirty helping the suffering. The Catholic lad from our dojo who goes to Nicaragua every year to help build villages for the victims of poverty humbles me with his compassion and resolve to help people. He never preaches, never indoctrinates, takes all our good-natured jokes about the Pope and is happy to share his understanding if asked about his faith. Otherwise, he just gets on with his life and leaves others to get on with theirs. The twisting of the truth by those with the time to think about life in their attempt to exert control over the people who are too busy actually contributing to society to bother trying to mask their insecurities with pathetic attempts to indoctrinate!. Thats where Christianity falls down for me (isn't this where we came in
Yes, Tekken, we ALL know how you feel about Christianity as you take every possible opportunity to enlighten all of us about the wisdom of both the UFC and Atheism. Philosopher: Interesting. So you would pretty much designate all these folkish practices into the ubrella of "occult"? I have to ask then, as someone who did spend a bit of time hanging out with the Pentecostals, what about things like speaking in tongues, etc. And Christians did meditate at one point, IIRC. EDIT: The post beneath illustrates my point (thanks KF). Why is it when it happens to Evangelical Christians it's "the holy spirit"? And it's perfectly acceptable. But if I meditate as a taoist, "I'm inviting the devil into my soul".
