The recent conflict between Muslim and Christian ideologies in America

Part of the reason for burning an icon of the opposing group is to show your criticism of them. That sword cuts both ways.

 

That the majority should not be tainted with the same brush as the minority because of the actions of the minority is a fair argument, and one that I generally agree with.

However, there comes a point when you have to ask the question, is the argument that radical Islamists are not "true" Muslims a valid one? After all, they rigorously follow the five pillars of Islam: recitation of the Shahadah, performing Salat, fasting during Ramadhan, going on Hajj, and Zakat. They believe in Allah, the inerrancy of the Koran, Hell, Paradise, and they avoid alcohol and pork. Thus they are Muslims, and even though they represent the extreme end of the scale, they give valid cause for concern of the dangers Islam pose to Western democracy.

And yes, I'm aware of the fact I'm criticising the religion when some of you will argue that I should only be criticising the radical fringe elements. I disagree. Faith is one of the strongest motivating factors a man can possess. And I worry when people are willing to place there faith in a religion which promotes violence towards non members. Take these verses for example:

Those who believe, fight in the cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Satan. So fight you against the friends of Satan. Ever feeble indeed is the plot of Satan.
(4:76)

Prophet! Rouse the believers to wage war. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will subdue two hundred: if a hundred, they will subdue a thousand of the disbelievers: for these are a people without understanding. (8:65)

[From] now, God has lightened your [task] for He knows that there is now weakness amongst you: But [ever so], if there are a hundred of you, patient and persevering, they will subdue two hundred, and if a thousand, they will subdue two thousand, with the leave of God: for God is with those who patiently persevere. (8:66)

Muster against them all the men and cavalry at your disposal so that you can strike terror into the enemies of Allah and of the believers and others beside them who may be unknown to you, though Allah knows them. And remember whatever you spend for the cause of Allah shall be repaid to you. You shall not be wronged. (8:60)

Fight those who believe not in Allah or the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission and are subdued. (9:29)

I confirmed these translations with a local Imam. The Koran is viewed as the true word of God, sent to man by God, and unedited by man. Regardless of how peaceful a man may be, if he places his faith in that which promotes the use of violence against me and my fellow non-believers, then I will always view them with some doubt in the back of my mind.

You might not agree with my point of view. But understand that my perspective is coloured by experiences which I doubt we share. My previous town had more mosques than churches; I walked down the street, past those mosques, with so-called moderate Muslims shouting obscenities at me for being a kaffur (non-believer). My wife, an Indonesian (the most populous Muslim nation in the world), has time and again been stopped in the street with Muslims demanding to know if she is: a) a Muslim, and if not, why not, b) why she doesn't dress more conservatively like a "good Muslim woman", c) why isn't she fasting during Ramadhan, and d) why she married a kaffur. Despite the fact she is not a Muslim. This all happened in England. In my wife's home country of Indonesia, my wife and I have been subjected to verbal abuse from Muslims because we did not attend mosque (we're not Muslims, FFS), because we drank alcohol on our front porch, because my wife didn't wear a head scarf, or because we held hands in public. God forbid we should make out. I have witnessed churches burnt to the ground and covered in spray paint reciting Koranic verses. I have even been fined by the local police because 1) I'm western, and 2) I'm an atheist. My wife and I moved to a new area because we were tired of the apparant "social Jihad" we experienced nearly every day, and we have no plans to go back to Indonesia for a very long time. Unfortunately, her relatives who still live there and continue to face a barrage of abuse for being non-Muslim, aren't so lucky.

And that's not even counting the fact I went to war in Iraq, where I was shot at by the civilians I was there trying to protect while they were shouting "kaffur al-maut" ("death to the infidels") and "allahu akbar" ("god is great"). Having Muslims shoot at you leaves a bitter taste in your mouth about all of them, and you can't really help that. My friends currently fighting in Afghanistan have experienced the same - some of them died - as well as unearthing IED's with the above phrases painted on in Arabic text. Most of my friends in the military now have the Arabic for "infidel" tattooed on their back.

Most of the Muslims you've met might be nice folk. But most of the ones I've met have been arrogant and judgemental, even racist in many cases. I guess the point of this post is that it's easy to chastise other's for not being as open to Islam when you haven't experienced the worst it has to offer.

 

I'm not going to tell you anything about what it was like to be in Iraq, because I wasn't there.

But I know this much. The Muslims in the United States and the UK aren't shooting at "infidels." At least, not any more than other random Americans go on shooting sprees. It's not a normal thing to do like it was for you in Iraq. So why get in the face of American and British Muslims because of what happened to you over there?

As an analogy, aggressively getting in the face of American and British Jews because you don't like how the IDF conducts itself in conflicts with Palestinians doesn't accomplish ANYTHING. Your message never actually gets to the IDF in a meaningful way (if anything, they just get the message "the US and UK are against us, so we're on our own regardless"). And you leave the American and British Jews (who don't determine IDF policy anyway) with a besieged mentality.

Like you, I've got some real concerns about some of the things that go on in the Muslim world--particularly those involving treatment of women, treatment of gays and lesbians, and treatment of religious minorities. But if I want to do anything about it, instead of just venting in a cathartic-but-counterproductive way, I think it's important to engage people in reasoned discussion instead of resorting to name-calling, offensive-and-pointless acts, etc. It might be my right to do urinate on an image of Muhammad under American law, but that doesn't mean it furthers ANY of the interests I care about. Instead, by further alienating Muslims, it lessens the chance I have to talk reasonably with the Muslims around me and (1) either learn that they actually agree more with me than with Wahhabists (not unlikely, considering the fact that they left the Middle East and moved here), or (2) find out that they disagree with me on those issues, but at least have a constructive debate about them and maybe make some progress.

The same is true of Middle Easterners burning American flags. Instead of engaging constructively with Americans about the concrete things that bother them about American foreign policy, they make Americans think "they just hate us because of who we are." It's actually counterproductive.

I think both are problematic (but both should be legal). I complain more about the Qur'an-burning in America than the American-flag-burning in Gaza because I think it's important to clean your own house before you criticize other people's houses.

 

:bang:Because he is not reading his favorite book to directly injure your sentiments, he mean's you no harm he is not trying to harm your interests or trying to offend you in anyway. By burning something just because he respect's it is very different.

You do also realise that these thing's were supposedly said when Yazid I, was the second Caliph of the Umayyad Caliphate , was acting like a giant douchebag and throwing his weightaround, and the spoilation and profanation of the holy cities of Makkah and Madinah by his forces occurred. don't you?

let's take another view.

"It may be that Allah will bring about love between you and those of them with whom you are now at enmity... Allah forbids you not respecting those who have not fought against you on account of your religion, and who have not driven you out from your homes, that you be kind to them and deal equitably with them; surely, Allah loves those who are equitable." - Holy Qur'an, 60:8-9

"the taking of one innocent life is like taking all of Mankind... and the saving of one life is like saving all of Mankind" - Holy Qur'an, 5:33.

Note no mention of whether the innocent life is that of a Hindu,Muslim,Christian or any other basis of distinction.

A lot of the doctor's here who voluntarily and free of charge treat the poor regardless of religion are muslim's. you can't use a bunch of quotes to tar an entire religion for example

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

You will be engaged to a woman, but another man will ravish her. You will build a house, but someone else will live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will never enjoy its fruit. Your ox will be butchered before your eyes, but you won't get a single bite of the meat. Your donkey will be driven away, never to be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will be there to help you. You will watch as your sons and daughters are taken away as slaves. Your heart will break as you long for them, but nothing you do will help. A foreign nation you have never heard about will eat the crops you worked so hard to grow. You will suffer under constant oppression and harsh treatment. You will go mad because of all the tragedy around you. The LORD will cover you from head to foot with incurable boils. (Deuteronomy 28:30-35 NLT)

Wives, be subordinate to your husbands, as is proper in the Lord. (Colossians 3:18 NAB)

Slaves, obey your human masters in everything, not only when being watched, as currying favor, but in simplicity of heart, fearing the Lord. (Colossians 3:22 NAB)

There are hundreds of quote's like these. Does this somehow mean that all Christians sell their daughters, bully their wives, encourage slavery and act like douchebags? I could apply the same logic

I worry when people are willing to place there faith in a religion which promotes violence,selling one's daughter to men, male superiority and what not.
but it would still be complete bs.

We can keep pulling examples of how some muslims acted like douchebag's and then about how some christian's did and then pull quotes either way Does this necessarily mean that they somehow represent the majority? I could point to all the people who've been injured in racist attack's in the State's and claim that all of them are racist, does this mean I'm correct?

 

I'll be the first to admit my opinion sounds like that of a closed-minded person. Like I said in my previous post, my point of view is coloured by my experiences. I can only form an honest opinion based on my experiences, and sadly, in my experience I have met more Muslims who were arrogant, offensive and elitist, seemingly based on their religious views, than not. I'm not saying all Muslims are this way; just the greater majority of the ones I've encountered (see examples in previous post).

Hope this goes some way to explaining my perspective when I post on threads like this.

 

Unfortunatly religion has this effect the world over, after all, my god is better than your god.

 

No, legally it isn't. Under free speech I have the RIGHT to do and say things that p1ss you off. As do you and everyone else. As I said before freedom is messy.

Banning actions that offend people leads to censorship and eventually to totalitarian control by a group or government. For example, the whole child abuse scandal within the catholic church right now would probably not have been uncovered. The church would simply have claimed that those people making the charges were doing so to offend the catholic church and the allegations would never have been investigated as the allegations themselves would have been illegal.

 

NOBODY in this thread is calling for the banning of Qur'an-burning. Folks in this thread are asking that people voluntarily refrain from doing it.

I have the legal right to call my neighbor's mother a no-good hussy; it doesn't mean I should. I have the right to burn the Qur'an. That doesn't mean I should, and it doesn't mean an ounce of good comes from me doing so.

 

Look, I understand what you are saying and I think burning religious books is stupid and probably dangerous also. However, what is occuring here, IMO, is that this group of people is being asked, actually told, that they should censor themselves for the good of the country, Christianity, world peace or whatever. It doesn't matter if the call for censorship is explicit in the form of law or implicit in the form of social and political pressure. It is still censorship and it is still wrong,

What I am not hearing is that even though this is an incredibly stupid action it is something that makes us different from a lot of the world where it would be a crime. It is something that should be pointed out that this is exactly what freedom is all about.

I will now get down off my soapbox.