The main weakness of BJJ

Always more important. Controlling the head only does anything because it is connected to the hips by the spine. Whether you want to call it the hara, dantien, or center of mass that's where you're controlling.

And Blanker you don't convince anyone by being ****y and sarcastic. It just makes you sound childish and if you want a sliver of respect I'd cut the **** and converse like a level-headed person.

 

No. BJJ has weaknesses, they are just not "ripping the head."

And the MOST ineresting part about the weaknesses of BJJ is that BJJ guys are the first to admit them!

You should look at the book "Mastering Jiu Jitsu" by Renzo Gracie.

He SPECIFICALLY uses the phrase, "In weaponless, 1 v 1 combat..." over and over again. Whenever he talk about the benfits of fighting on the ground he ALWAYS prefaced it with "In a weaponless, single opponent confrontation..."

When people would say, "GJJ isn't good for fighting multiple opponents" he would reply "Of course not, but at least we learn how to actually fight ONE person.... you guys can't even do that."

Not that i completely agree, but i get his point.

 

Hi Rebel,

The scenario I was thinking of/describing was pummeling for hooks in side mount/side control positions or something very similar - so really close range.

 

Makes me laugh reading posts like this!......loads of people trying to point out weaknesses in this art and that art.......

I've practiced traditional japanese jiu jitsu to dan grade, competed at amateur level boxing and BJJ for the last 3 years, all of them have their areas of weakness, there are always areas that can be exploited in all of them.....it's more a case of the individual that trains hard enough to not only see the openings/weaknesses but also having the appropriate skills to exploit them in a real scenario.....too many out there that spend too much time talking a good fight instead of training for a good fight!

ask your questions and prove your theories on the mat in sparring, otherwise button it!

 

Gotta love Renzo

 

Renzo > BJJ haters/LARPers

 

Bjj is a sport "one on one" based system, people who think other wise are fooling themselves.

When a street mugging occurs does it happen always happen "one on one", or is it usually two or more? Are weapons often involved, knife, gun, etc...??? Street gang violence isn't limited to one on one?

The luxury of a gauranteed "one on one" fight, mugging, etc.. is not realistic, it's a sportsmans fantasy.

Maybe one is the best "one on one" rules fighter in the world but so what if two bikers can kick your head in with no problem.

What good is it if your great in the ring and bad in real life?

I would ask this, What are the strenghts of Bjj system?

1. One on One, grappling.
2. Very limited basic SD.
3. Blank?

 

I think there is some confusion of how BJJ trained people actually fight in a real situation. The limitations people associate with BJJ are mostly because of the sport rule set trained for. This is a matter of experience, not a matter of the martial art system. People gain experience in a sport environment but they don't gain as much if any experience in real world self-defense situations. They blame the system when in fact the fault is their own lack of real world experience that is the factor most limiting themselves.

Saying BJJ is limited is alright, but that goes with a caveat that the most important factor is going to be experience, not skill. The more experienced the person is in applicable real world situations, the better they will likely perform in those situations.

I would say the most common scenario from a trained BJJ or Judo practicianer is to take the enemy down, then either punch them out or choke them out. Joint breaks, if they happen, IMHO, usually occur during the takedown. The takedown is usually a simple throw, trip, or from a leg grab. The takedown is usually within the first four seconds and the choke or punch out is usually in the following ten seconds. We are not talking about minutes for a fight.

I don't have some extensive research on this. This is based on what people have reported to me from their own real fights. Some were from fights seventy years ago and some from less than a year ago. The story stays the same over seventy years, so the facts are there about what worked then and what still works today.

 

1) Superiority in ground grappling,
2) Experience in standing grappling
3) Willingness to close with your enemy
4) Ability in disengaging clinch / groundwork
5) Ability in grip fighting/ develops grip strength,
(useful for wrist locking people, LOL)
6) Knowledge over your actual strengths and weaknesses
7) Exposure to MMA, judo, sambo, greco, thai and boxing.
8) Athletic training, (useful when running away)
9) Useful in training for people with healspurs, like the original op has
10) Destroys the ego, less likely to go picking fights
11) Makes confident people so that people are less likely to be picked as a victim.

 

Out of interest, why would you want complex self defense? Surely simple counters / reverses are better then complex Ones? or is this an attempt to frame BJJ as simple so that other things can be called advanced?

Advanced self defense:

http://www.youtube.com/user/srhkd

 

LOL I would be embarrassed to show the knife self defense techniques at 2:00on the below video. Is what you call realistic self defense?

http://www.youtube.com/user/srhkd

 

I don't think this is really a weakness to be honest (not that I'm saying BJJ has none). Any strike or attack opens you up somewhere, that's why timing and knowing when, or feeling when, to execute a certain move is so important. This is really the same in any martial art isn't it? If you throw a side kick and someone manages to hit the kneecap of your extended leg is that a cheap shot? Or just better timing?

 

It's all really very simple which is going the the ground or even tying up in a standing clinch in a two on one fight is will get you beat up or worse.

The nature of Bjj is to only learn how to fight one on one, they excel in ground fighting only against one person, this method of fighting as little real life application.

Kusa et al, advanced SD is to learn how to survive multiple attackers with and with out weapons, not so called fancy one on one moves. I didn't attempt to show any advanced material on that clip, it was basic for the benefit of the people watching and their entertainment i.e. a demo. :hat:

 

1) Someone experienced in grappling is going to be the most able to disengage from the clinch / groundwork.

2) Yes one on one, and they do that well, some arts dont even do that.
One real life application would be in sexual assault defense if all other methods have failed.

3) multiple attackers with and with out weapons? running or a force multiplier is your only option, I would chose running.

4) A jumping head scissors takedown from a knife attack is not basic, or appropriate in SD, also notice how you both end up on the ground, as you've said before in RBSD ground fighting is a last resort.

 

I can't think of a delicate way to put this so here it is: Anyone who thinks that they can, unarmed and by themself, use martial arts to fight there way out of a multiple attackers / weapons scenario and not end up dead or close to it is a flat out idiot. (or just the luckiest SOB to ever live.) Yes I'm sure there are plenty of ways to survive these sorts of things, running talking or shooting all come to mind but fighting just ain't one of them and anyone who thinks otherwise is just being deluded. So yes BJJ may not be ideal for street fighting and SD stuff but no system really is and BJJ has a lot of other benifits that many of the more "realistic" RBSD stuff lacks, see Kusas' post for some examples.
BJJ=great for fighting
Fighting= crappy for self defense

 

You're still taking my move out of context and this is why.

Ending up on the ground strong possibility in a fight, however the context of how and when you do it is different in the case of my move. My move was not ground grappling in any sense but rather a throw or take down, most people should be able to see the big difference.

1. I wasn't pinnned and completely free to get up and move about at will.

2. In context of reality, I would only do that when the situation was acceptable, another words I was not in danger of multiples at the time.

Vs. having to take it to the ground and grapple all the time because that's the only way I know how to fight (bjj).

I also think we're talking about a case where a Bjj person has to fight more than one person and lack the training.

My only suggestion is to try and use the other person as a shield if I was on the bottom so the second attacker would have trouble hitting me until I can get up and run away.

If I was on the Top and a second attacker comes I must get up and move or I will get hit, kicked, etc...

It's basic for me! LOL

 

I agree fighting two or more is very dangerous no matter who you are.

The point of fighting more than one in RBSD is not to win but to survive, that why it's not a sport.:hat:

Surival is the point of RBSD nothing else!!!

 

Hi American HKD. I don't remember if this has been asked already, but what is your experience of "reality" when it comes to self defense? Your martial arts resumé is impressive but have you worked as a police officer, security officer, prison officer etc, or did you grow up in a rough neighbourhood where being able to fight was a necessity for survival? I'm not trying to start an argument here, I'm just curious.

OSU!

 

I had my share of fights nothing to brag about. I'm not one who looks for trouble or the other hand I've made it my business to learn the difference between sports and reality.

With that said I don't have all the answers but I do know what's what and can train accordingly.

My credentials are:

I've been trained by GM Ji Han Jae in Sinmoo HKD. If you know who he is you'll know he was the Head trainer of the elite Korean presidential body gaurds for many years (same thing as US secret service). Also he was the Trainer of the US secret service under Regan and US army combat trainer in the Vietman era.

As well as one the toughest street fighters in Korea (well known fact you can do your research)

I've also been trained by former NYPD Gary Moskowitz a reality specialist who also trained and worked with with the Israeli boarder patrol units, and he's one of the best reality guy I know out there with a nice following in NY.

I also spent five plus years in Gracie JJ or BJJ focusing on the street aspect of grappling vs sport.

I have trained many folks over the years form the Army, Prison Gaurds, Police, State Police, etc... and the average people in these fields I've trained so far haven't come close to my level of training or knowledge.

All in all I'm a pretty well rounded MA but I keep training to and learning to improve myself, that's all I can say.

What's your story???

 

The point is not survival and nothing else. Like most training, the point is to develop practical application. e.g. a school teacher isn't going to rip the eyes out of a student that is rowdy in class, but in a situation where they are violently attacked in a parking lot, they must respond appropriately. Developing what is practical and effective in any given situation is the goal.

As such, you still appear to downplay the importance of experience. Take a police officer of five years and train them in BJJ... guess what, because they take into their training already the experience of walking the talk from five years on the beat... they know what is going to be practical for them... and they take from BJJ what works for them.

BJJ is limited, but isn't because it is grappling that makes it limited, it is that the students don't get adequate experience in situations such as multiple attackers and weapons. I bet most don't study the local laws and understand what their rights are under them. I even bet that most don't know all the local crime trends the same as law enforcement. These are all limitations.

American HKD, here is the skinny about this... there is a simple solution... it is called CROSS-TRAINING. All your weaknesses are, as I like to call them, limitations because all one has to do is stop limiting themselves and cross-train.

You point the finger at BJJ, but really the one at fault is the martial artist for limiting themselves. All the issues with weapons and multiple attackers are KNOWN issues.

American HKD, if you are serious about finding some weakness... find something new. Don't bring up repeatedly something already known for a hundred years.