The Limitations of Sparring as opposed to Alternative Training Practices.

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by CKava, Jun 5, 2006.

  1. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    If you want to quote me do it in context. You my friend have proven you don't want to learn any thing just carry on with your ears blocked.
    You are just a full cup.
  2. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Emmm... I just want to check you did know that I was expressing what the quote above meant?

    Also RT again not to put down your wonderful contribution but I don't seem to recall putting down Ninjutsu I disagreed with Shinobi Shau's argument to begin with and the discussion from there revolved around whether or not Ninjutsu requires that people resist and what defines unrealistic training. After the stance on sparring was clarified by the useful posts I already credited above then I asked about conditioning to take hits. Since then all the responses with the exception of a brief moment of reasonableness by fire&steel have been the 'disinterested' people hopping around and ranting on about how you can't discuss ninjutsu and how you hate these discussions. The closest I have come to condeming Ninjutstu training is my last post and in actual fact I am only condemning fire&steel's argument as I have a feeling some Ninjutsu schools will use safety equipment in their training.

    To be honest from my brief experience of the Ninjutstu forum I haven't found that the problem facing discussion is the 'trolls' who visit but the Ninjutsu members who refuse to discuss anything with someone outside Ninjutsu. Again if this is the case then why not put up a BIG STICKY at the top saying only Ninjutsu folk may discuss Ninjutsu we don't want to have discussions with people from other arts. Then no-one else will make the mistake of trying to learn anything about Ninjutsu or discussing differences in training approaches. Im curious about Ninjutsu by the way Rubber Tanto but I have no desire to train in it... thats why I thought discussing it might be interesting. I've not experienced this problem with any other group I've discussed martial arts with besides Wing Chun folks, many people on this section really do seem to have a persecution complex. To make it clear: I DONT WANT YOU TO CHANGE YOUR TRAINING I just wanted to hear your reasons for training and your responses to certain arguments. However, its getting exceedingly tedious dealing with people who just want to complain about such discussions so for the love of God just ignore the thread if you can't engage in discussion without breaking down.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2006
  3. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    About the best advice I have seen all day Nick. Where is MR K when he is needed. With any luck he will ban all these guys as they have admitted to trolling this site on BSD.
  4. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Geez thats impressive I dont seem to recall posting anything on Bulshido or being a contributing member there but maybe thats the subtlety of their genius. Im working for Bulshido even though I dont know it!

    Holy Mary Mother of Jesus! I wholeheartedly agree PLEASE, PLEASE ignore this thread if you see no value in such discussions!!! I have been suggesting this since the start of the thread but never mind that just heed Rubber Tanto's advice now!

    P.S. Sparring doesn't make you bad ass (don't remember saying that?) but it is useful... it's also usually done in a much more friendly and relaxed manner than many people imagine.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2006
  5. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    Well funny your signature quote must be popular as I have seen your signature quote on a user name at BSD also funny how you knew that BSD was bullshido if you don't know it .
  6. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    Now'll forgive me and the others for the way we react here, but in a nutshell we are just used to the way these threads go that's all. You say you have innocent intentions, with a sincere curiosity in our martial art and a real query based on a comment. And you probably do...but in the end, the threads become a haven for people to come on and just put down our style and then a spot light on bullshido where someone will put up something like "Bujinkan sparring quotes of disaster"

    It leads nowhere useful.

    If you want to read posts of mine that you will find more "contributing" look back through some older threads on the very same topic...the UFC one is perfect for my stance on these topics.

    From my viewpoint in a nutshell...yes I agree with randori. when I say that MY interpretation of it is learning a technique first under controlled methods (ie: a compliant partner) until you have a sound understanding of it. Then slowly incorporating levels of resistance, force and speed to the training. What someone pointed out as being called the "I" method. I asked my teacher he confirmed this is what we learn.

    No we do not wear pads during most of the trainings. Only when training under FULL resistance. And even then its just combat gloves ad not head guards.

    I find no limitations to sparring. I just feel you need a healthy balance of it and kata training. If I was training for the ring, I'd want to train by sparring 90% of the time. And I would train in multiple styles to get the best of each one and also a flavour and understanding of each one. If I was training only for the street and looking to pick fights, I'd just do boxing. Because if you can duck and weave, jab and hook, you got enough tools to get you by.

    But I'm not...I'm training because I just love this martial art. Do I find it effective? Yes, I do. I know my sesnei teaches in a way that gets the thumbs up by the bujinkaners, the skeptics and most importantly...ME.
    But the key is I FIND it effective. Do you find it effective? Well who knows...if you havent tried it you'll never know.

    Everyone sees it different.
    Many will say that TKD is not effective.
    But when I look at this I imagine this guy on a street corner with a kid facing him and them just mouthing off at eachother, the other kid would move forward and "whack" its over...its fast...under a want to dispute it...go ahead...I've been around the block enough times to know that kick would take anyone down. But many will come on and say that it has be honest I'd don't think that TKD practitioner would care...neither do I.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2006
  7. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    Your joking, its too much fun now!!! :eek:
  8. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    And lastly see my post on this page. The point I am trying to make is I DONT WANT YOU TO STAY IF YOU DONT WANT TO DISCUSS THE TOPIC! lol, I made no secret of this from the very first post. Does that make it clear?

    Im not interested in forcing people to discuss sparring Im interested in hearing the responses of people who are willing to discuss it. If your not willing then fine I don't care... if no Ninjutsu people are willing then fine, I would consider it a pity but c'est la vie! But for the love of all the orphans in the world stop posting as if someone is standing with a hot poker behind you making you read this or making you post replies. If your not interested in the topic and are only intent on causing arguments I respectfully request you bugger off out of the thread because you are being a TROLL.

    EDIT: And Rubber Banto I appreciate your last post thank you for taking the time and for what its worth I wholeheartedly agree with most of your sentiments. Im not interested in everyone converting to MMA (heck I dont even enjoy practice MMA!) but I am interested in discussiion of different perspectives even when it becomes a little heated. I can understand where you are coming from with Bulshido... but ultimately who cares what they are saying over in Bulshido anyhow!

    Oh and F&s are you sure someone has my signature quote? Its from a Jesuit priest? I can't imagine many folks on Bulshido being particularly interested in the sentiment it expresses either! If you look up CKava on Bulshido you should find me but I think the most recent post you'll find will be from about 2 years ago and I don't think your going to find the incriminating evidence you belive exists.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2006
  9. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    Well, I care!
    Why because kids who might have been thinking about joing the bujinkan might see it and be detered. Sure there are some terrible schools...I have seen it for myself and they really give me the irrates because they drag the rest down with them. But equally there are some really good schools out there too and why should they suffer? A school should be judged on its own merits not on the system as a whole.

    The other thing is the negative aspect. I have been trying to organise a video clip of us resistant sparring so that I could show how taijust can be effective under full resistance. At first everyone I spoke to was very hesitant when they found out I was planning to post it here and on Bulshido. They all said the same thing. 1) they didn't want people being able to take pics of their faces to caption it and 2) that they felt regardless of what we showed and how effective we showed it to be, people on bullshido would just can it anyway. I convinced a few to take part. It was originally planned for last sunday.

    But Thanks to an ex bujinkan student there that has now made it his crusade to just find whatever he can that is bujinkan and just slag off on it. No one is willing to participate, now certain that the information would be manipulated or mocked regardless of content.

    Such a awesome endeavour blown away by immature behaviours and childish vindictiveness.

    Thats why I care. For what it's worth.
  10. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    All I can say is that sucks and its a pity that the clip won't go up. I hope you get some people willing to risk internet abuse to make one eventually as I for one would be interested in seeing it.

    And before I get my words taken out of context I am not demanding you make a vide clip and host it on youtube... Im looking at you Keikai! ;)
  11. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    I am Sure someone there is using it. If it is not you using it then I am quite wrong about that being your user name there.

    However you yourself have been twisting what I have said on several occasions using it out of context to suit your own pov and it would seem doing so in a calculated manner.

    So how would you explain that ?
  12. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    Well Imagine how I feel...over the last few weeks I have watched people go from reluctant, to hesitant, to interested to excited about the project...then because I had mentioned bullshido, people went on had a look around, then went from excited to concerned to hesitant and then reluctant.

    Its not only that people feel they are "risking internet abuse" its also that for many of us at my dojo...they just don't feel they need to "prove" anything. So getting someone to do it in the first place was hard enough. to make a coffee...this will be a long night!
  13. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    That Im not actually twisting what you say. That I quote points that relate to the area I am discussing and that I am calculating :D.
  14. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    That is garbage and you know it! you have misquoted me, used quotes out of context and tried to put words in my mouth and made stupid comments like getting dumped onto a concrete floor does not equate to getting hit. Well next time your in a boxing ring do a backflip out of the ring onto the floor landing onto your back, side, shoulders etc etc tell me how it feels ? I know your just guessing :D
  15. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    The feeling of falling onto a hard ground while painful is not the same feeling as say being rocked by a punch. Oh and for your information the gym in Belfast had no rings until very rcently so all training was done on the horrible carpet/concrete floor which is very unforgiving when you fall on it not to mention extremely unforgiving to the the soles and balls of your feet (in MT you train bare foot- very unrealistic).
  16. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    CK, can I ask you what styles you have trained in and furthermore what styles you have trained against?

    MT training barefoot may seem unrealistic, but I spar with friends that train in MT and have no doubts they can hold their own. I also spar with friends that study Karate, also others with BJJ as part of the MMA training (one who trains in all out sparring and one who trains in controlled sparring) and I don't think they have any issues. Having said that, none of them discount my abilities either. I hold my own just as well as they do, so maybe some people might think I'm larping but at least I'm training and testing my stuff against others and finding it works.
    We all traiun different, we all spar (randori) using different methods, but we can all defend ourselves. Can you see why I believe its so hard to make generalisations about training methodology against a style as a whole.

    If one ex-bujinkan student for example, belives the Booj as a whole is flawed because of his training experiences. It could be just that HIS instructor was really really bad. He clearly has not seen enough of the booj to guage it for himself. How can he? there are thousands of students around the globe, hudreds of dojos. And if he hasn't met me, then I know he hasn't met everybody. So what does he have, but the words of his peers to go by, other ex-bujinkan like himself with frustrations and anger...but if we were to step back and count the number of these guys...who make it out as if there are multitudes of bujinkaners leaving the system in many do you count voicing the protest? tens, twenties? Can you find me 100 on these forums? No. And we are talking a system of thousands and you see...while I do acknowledge that there are a number of dud bujinkan schools out there...I have seen plenty of clips to verify it...there are good schools too...and and many of them train in ways that the students feel work for them, just like other stystems feel their training works equally.

    So...this debate is redundant for that very reason. Because it just comes down to personal opinion.
  17. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    Falling is not the same as being dumped !

    unforgiving From your feet ? Gee just imagine how nasty it must to be thrown head first at it from a throw by a guy 6 foot 5 then and have to recover enough to save your head. Funny how it is nasty concrete in your dojo but our concrete that we get thrown onto is not so nasty :D

    All the MT guys I have known or played with over the years have all sparred/fought full contact with no pads or gloves. They called styles who use gloves pads and forbid elbow use etc modern Kickboxers.
  18. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    AMEN ! Now why did I not think of that. let us hope you have the last word RT.

  19. Nick Mandilas

    Nick Mandilas Resistance is an option..

    Some how I doubt it brother...Some how I doubt it.
  20. Brad Ellin

    Brad Ellin Baba

    This discussion actually started off quite well. CKava is not a BSD troll, I have been following that topic. His arguments have been thought out and well reasoned and so have some of the reponses. But, then some folks had to take it in another direction.

    He's right, if you havent anything to add to the discussion, don't. Read and lurk until you do, or don't. But, please, let's not derail it just because you dont agree.

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