The Illusion of "Self Defense" . . . .

I was doing some reading over the past few days and came across and interesting question with an even more profound answer. I agree 110% with what is said. It's from straight blast gym ( http://straightblastgym.com/ )

(Q):I don’t see what the difference is between what you teach, and NHB training. What about Self Defense! Some of us just want to go home to our families and don’t care about brawling it out in a ring.

(A):This is a question that is becoming so common I thought I would try and address it as simply as possible.
The idea that there is such a thing that is "self defense" training is in and of itself yet another in a long line of martial arts myths.
Let me explain. What works in "sport" is what works against resisting opponents. Much of what is passed of as to "deadly" for sport, is simply technique which will not work against resisting opponents. Obviously there are some foul tactics (such as biting and eye gouging) which could never be allowed in sport. But, would you really want to go tit for tat with a Rickson Gracie, or Tom Erickson by biting or eye gouging?
What is the difference between "self defense" Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and tournament Jiu-Jitsu. . . .not much. An armlock is an armlock, holding mount is holding mount, etc. There are some things you need to watch for, but I have always seen Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Instructors address these. For example, when Rickson teaches a seminar he will often teach the simple shoulder lock from mount position. He will say "for street turn away from his face while you pop this because he may try and claw your eyes", but the armlock is essentially the same!
My friend, and Machado black belt Chris Haueter recently completed a video series with us titled "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Streetfighting" (featured in our new adverts in IKF and black belt) Do you think Chris taught a whole "different" version of Jiu-Jitsu? No, he simply demonstrated areas that need to be addressed for the street. . .the moves, the positions, the training, the conditioning, the timing. . .its all the same. He also made a good point, you could take a very good boxer, and in a manner of minutes teach him to open his hands, how to strike the eyes, etc, and he would be very effective. However, if you took someone who knows no boxing, and has never done any sparring, and teach him or her just "streetfighting eye boinks" they will still get their ass kicked. They won’t have the timing, footwork, movement, coordination, etc. The same could be said of wrestling, and Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and all the other combat "sports".
What about knives and multiple opponents . . . .what about them? RUN! I cannot fight two large males who are strong and know even some of what I know. Neither can Randy Couture, Chris Haueter, nor (I've asked him) Rickson Gracie. If someone pulls a knife on me I am doing my best Ben Johnson imitation. I am not going to carry around a clipit and engage him in a knife dual. Bottom line is that if you are staying out of bars, away from alcohol, and "party" people, and living a clean, athletic life. . .its unlikely that you will ever get in a legit streetfight. If you are attacked it will be by a predator. . .you will be out numbered, and or he/they will have a gun and knife. . .and NOTHING, let me repeat, NOTHING anyone could ever teach you, will even the odds in that situation. Your best defense in that situation is awareness, and conditioning. . .to try and find a way out, and RUN. period.
I know the Kali/ Escrima knife drills taught in the JKD Concepts world, etc. So does Burton, so do many others. . .but I am skeptical at best about the application of any of it against someone armed with a real blade and bad intentions. Same with so called "multiple opponent training".
Does that mean we never do it. No, all our Instructors have done a simplified version of it (read tried it against resistance), and are students go through it as well. . but you know what you really learn, you learn you dont ever want to try and fight a blade or several people at once because odds are you'll get a beating. And that's a good lesson to learn!
So why bother with martial arts at all then?
Because, done (correctly), it can make you a better person, a happier person, and teach you lessons that will permeate your entire life. Correctly means athletically. The lessons learned on the mat and in the ring are true lessons of "Gnosis" self knowledge. It’s all about self perfection. The real spiritual side to martial arts exists is the athletic aspects of it! Joseph Campbell once stated that the only true "peak spiritual experience" he had ever had was through athletics.
The Straight Blast Gym is in Portland. Between our several locations in the area we have roughly 600 students. Out of those 600, 40% are female. Out of those 600 we have a competition team of about 11 active members that compete in Vale Tudo and Jits. That means 589 of them don't, and have no intention of ever competing. They are here to get in shape, have fun, learn about themselves, who they are and what they can really do. No illusions, no bull****, they learn what they can do, and most importantly, what they can’t do! Most are middle aged, professional, and go to work everyday. Many are law enforcement. They use it every day on the street.
What we teach works just as good as anything ever could in the street. But, in the end the pursuit of "streetfighting" and "self defense" is a dead end. Think of yourself as an athlete. Train realistically (yes that means like a "sport") and the real spiritual part of all this becomes a reality. That’s the truth!

I know it's a long read, but I would appreciate your suggestions/challenges with what is said.

 

Only thing I dont agree with is how it kind of portrays learning something of weapon fighting as pointless. If anything, kali has taught me more than anyone could ever drill into my head verbally, that its best to run from a knife. Unlike empty handed fighting, knives do not require intense momentum, and so the slashes can be quick and stacked on very fast. Where one opponent would maybe get a chance to punch you once or twice in an opening, a fellow with a knife could put on quite a few more knife cuts, and if he knows where to go and manages to cut those places, youre dead.

 

I second that comment that weapons training is important. It gives you a greater respect for the weapon and it also helps you understand the stengths and weaknesses associated it with the weapon. I don't think most people truely understand what knives can and can't do. And there are a lot of myths out there. Basic knife, club, and gun training really needs to be part of any robust street self defense training.

The other thing that isn't addressed is the psychological/emotional aspects of self defense. While sport techniques can translate very well, people training in self defense need to understand that sometimes a mutual conscent to fight isn't given in a self defense situation. Being abushed changes everything. Understanding and dealing with that is in some ways more important than any given technique.

 

sounds great for submission fighting but what about styles the teach breaking strikes eg strike at this point to collapse collar bone into heart/lung cant use that in a comp ...stomp knee here....when punch comes in hit here and here to break elbow... every striking style teaches bone breaking strikes that "perhaps" could be needed in a life threatening street situation
one british/japanese aiki jutsu teacher was banned from tournement fighting four breaking a collar bone some ribs and a shoulder..... kind of be a different world wouldnt it ....
people seem to get into the octagon/ring and forget how much damage they can do and it becomes a brawl the techniques we learn will destroy an attacking human body i dont advise using them for a sport do you ?

and please i cant even believe he threw in the term spiritual

 

Here's a completely different approach to Self Defence.

Have any of you;

1/ Contacted your local police station to find out which parts of town to avoid at certain times?

2/ Prepared Non Lethal defence equipment to carry about your person, such as Pepper spray or Cayenne pepper?

3/ Considered staying in on a Saturday night instead of going out?

4/ Been taught how to carry yourself without appearing to be a potential victim?

5/ Considered that your potential assailant may not be a trained Martial Artist and move in patterns outside of your experience.

I could go on, but I've lost track of where I was going with it.

Martial Arts training is like carrying a knife.
Don't carry a knife if you are afraid to use it, and don't expect to have a shoulder to cry on when someone pulls a bigger knife on you.
Sometimes having a knife in your pocket makes you go looking for situations where you might have to use it.
The answer is not to have the biggest knife in town. IMHO

 

How is this any diffrent than practicing an and arm lock and stoping before you before you pop his/her shoulder. You can get taught all the deadly bone breaking strikes you want but until you actually try them against a resisting opponent chances are you won't ever be able to do them on the street.

 

so on that theory terry you arnt sure you can shoot someone until you do it ...hey i bet thats the way the army an police train right ?

 

<<<one british/japanese aiki jutsu teacher was banned from tournement fighting four breaking a collar bone some ribs and a shoulder..... kind of be a different world wouldnt it ....>>>

Tai gip can you give specifics on this? A name perchance? The events he was banned from?

 

sorry stump i cant remember thats why i was asking for people her who did aiki jutsu a friend who trained in england told me when he came over to do wing chun
he also brought and old coin with him and when we sat meditating he asked me to tell him where the coin came from apparently his teacher gave it to him to give to me to say hello... mind you this was before my friend was my friend or even new me anyway his instructor thought he would make a point by doing what i described though we are going back 7 years here ...
his classes kind of pushed the normal reality barrier most people here see as a brick wall ... havnt spoken to friend since but im sure he is doing well hes certainly pretty dangerous

 

See profile.

 

I wouldn't talk about army practices unless you really know what you are talking about. Just because you own a gun (or know a technique) doesn't mean you know how to apply it or are profficient at using it.

 

good avoidance Terry now answer the question you are saying you couldnt use bone breaking techniques unless you have practiced them on someone ... so im applying that rule to firearms does it still work

 

"Just because you own a gun (or know a technique) doesn't mean you know how to apply it or are profficient at using it."

Terry
Matthes

Honestly, i would agree with terry there. i mean just about anybode can fire a gun, or stab/slash with a knife. but it may take awhile in order to learn how to use it properly. And even then there will always be someone that has trained harder than you and will be able to use it better than you.

 

yes but do you need to use it on someone to know it works ?

i have a hammer i know i could split someones head open with it i dont need to do that to be sure

i have a knife i dont need to stab someone with it to know i could

i know a variety of bone breaking strikes and locks i dont need to use them on someone to know they work

do you Terry

 

-I am not proud of it, but I have broken someones arm with this type of technique before and it was alot easier and faster than appying a lock. BTW-I am good at joint locks and have trained with some of the best submission grapplers and BJJ guys in the world. As far as multiple opponents and armed opponents, been there done that. (just reading this reminds me I wasn't the wisest person when I was younger) Many of the NHB guys feel superior and claim that the traditional and combat stuff wouldn't really work. It's been my experience that with practical application, and hard training, it works extremely well.
-I believe that NHB is one of the most practical ways for an advanced and healthy/athletic practitioner to train. It's also my opinion that this type of training and competition will help spur a major jump in the evolution of the martial arts. I think that the intent of NHB is for an athletic victory and not to maim or kill the opponent. This changes things dramatically. I think that many are frustrated with the bs of people making exagerated claims or not being to "walk their talk", and a counterpush has begun. I do feel that many are ready to throw "the baby out w/ the bathwater" in a rush to embrace the new trend, though.
-There is a lot of good practical training from the traditional from when it was used mostly on the battlefield. If you can sift through what has been watered down, and incorperate it into the mix as well as the NHB, we can evolve the arts even further. Not just blindly follow the new popular trend. BTW-Good points, Andy.

 

GOOD THREAD! i agree with you Kwan Jang. There's no way to determine what is "MORE" effective and what is less effective from either the traditional or NHB aspect of MA. I'm sick of hearing/reading/listening to all this quarrying about TMA as being less effective and MMA superior... or TMA is "too dangerous" or MMA is more "sports oriented" and not street...BOTH are martial arts and if all of you believe that you are a "TRUE" ma-ist...then have respect for everything and all that is considered MA. Everything in the MA, whether it applies in the ring or on the streets has the potential to be deadly...SO i believe IMO that yes...there are knowledge in TMA that would be deemed affective on the streets, or in the ring regardless...and the same goes for MMA. Instead of arguing what's better and what not...why can't we all just get along and learn from each other...once again...there is no one superior martial art. there is no 2 or even 3 or 10 combinations of MA that would be considered superior. Many martial arts traditional or non alike have always been built upon other foundations....for example the Tang Lang (praying mantis) system of Kungfu was built upon on what was considered many other affective techniques from other styles...would you not say that it is a MMA ?? in due time of course the system became a style of it's own. Bottom line is the knowledge of the MA is infinite, our journey in the MA is an accumalitive one in my opinion. and it's a lifelong trial and learning. so have fun and enjoy it. There is no "perfect" martial artist that has existed or ever will exist. Our goal in the MA is not/should not be of perfection in my opinion but rather to seek harmony and a sense of achievement...like the author of the article mentioned.

 

kwang very good post very well said

 

The purpose of the self defense aspects in MA's is to prepare yourself for a situation that cannot be solved without violence. That is not to say it is the only aspect, i think that that article is making things overly complicated and uses some word play to state that this is not true. just because we don't live in an age where self defense is important (some would argue) doesn't mean that the fundamental nature of the arts has changed

 

There's something i've been taugh if you are attacked by multiple opponents and you can not run away o avoid the situation, use that technique or any technique against the boss or the stronger bigger guy ( become a predator and not a victim ) and the others will think twice before acting against you.
I honestly hope none of us have to use this strategy in the future but therefore think about it how to become a predator when it is nedded.

 

Very well said Terry. I would just omit your last 3 words.