The Cobra Kai of the FMAs, Pekiti Tirsia (Good or Bad?)

Challenge matches is why FMA is effective. Now that the FMA culture has changed to picnics and patty cake with stick routines, Eskrima/Kali/Arnis have now become a joke. No more live or real training. Challenge matches are healthy--if anyone cares to partake. If no one tests their skills, everyone will be stuck twirling sticks and thinking that's true FMA. No one's threatening wives or kids, it's just a simple open challenge for the health of the real Filipino Martial art, to see if you possess the real technology crafted in the laboratory of combat. Test your skill, no one's asking you to leave your wife and kids.

 

argumentum ad hominem is gay, stick to the discussion, don't take it personally

There were no such characters in both new and old Karate Kid movies, there was one dichotomy: the friendly Daniel-san taught by a friendly teacher and a 'no retreat, no surrender' teacher who taught his students to be the same.

Friendly Daniel-san and friendly Miyagi-san (or Jackie Chan) is cool. I like friendly people, mean people suck. Everyone in FMA is so damn friendly now a days. But if 'friendliness' takes away from effectiveness in combat, then all is lost. That's the point you might be missing here.

The open challenge, like it or not, fear it or ridicule it, has a purpose. It is quality control for our Filipino arts--to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

[/QUOTE]Now that the FMA culture has changed to picnics and patty cake with stick routines, Eskrima/Kali/Arnis have now become a joke. No more live or real training. Challenge matches are healthy--if anyone cares to partake. If no one tests their skills, everyone will be stuck twirling sticks and thinking that's true FMA. No one's threatening wives or kids, it's just a simple open challenge for the health of the real Filipino Martial art, to see if you possess the real technology crafted in the laboratory of combat. Test your skill, no one's asking you to leave your wife and kids. [/QUOTE]

IgitDako,

If you train in FMA then stating that it has become a joke is a tad out of line and a rather large generalisation. Challenge matches in the PI often resulted in death, nowadays and certainly in the UK this isnt possible due to the legalities of it. I have been challenged, I turned up when others didnt. However I am fairly sure live swords would not have been used, as while I was defending my club and honour would not want to take another persons life.

As for your comment about no more real or live training, again another generalisation. I know of FMA clubs that do train live.

You mention twirling sticks in a rather derogitory way. There are those who train for fun and to learn a new skill, improve co-ordination, meet new people and learn techniques that MAY save their life. If they train in this way, does that make them less of a FMA practisioner, I think not.

Then again there are those, like me, who test their skill in a very real and live way. I have fought with the Dog Brothers and I am an active member of the Black Eagle Society. In both these formats we do test our skills in a "live" environment against other clubs and styles. We do get beaten up, end up with broken bones, but egos are left at the door and we leave as friends.

For me this is a modern take on the challenge matches of old. Is it less valid? I think not.

I think I get where you are heading with your post, but the wording of it could easily offend people who are less thick skinned than myself ....


Your Brother in FMA,

 

And the point you might be missing, sunshine, is that your expertise only seems to extend as far as the Karate Kid movies. You're still wet behind the ears in this game, and by the sound of it have only just worked out which end of the stick to hold.

And for your information, every time Daniel got his ass kicked, there were plenty of yapping little b*tches around backing up Jonny, all of them happy to shout abuse from the sidelines, but would they get stuck in? Hell no. I hate to say it, but the way your discussion is going, this is the way i see you. If everyone in FMA is so soft and weak now, why don't you do a Jonny and give one of us a good kicking to prove it? Oh, what's the matter - no skills? Then shut the f*ck up.

I can't recall anyone saying that the (somewhat half-arsed, from what i can see) open challenge has done anything to develop FMA. On the other hand, i can think of plenty of people (students and instructors alike) saying that increased communication and exchange of knowledge has done a great deal to develop it.

Besides which, if someone was really serious about exposing fakes and "separating the wheat from the chaff" then surely they'd be taking the initiative and going out there to do it, rather than resting on their laurels and waiting for it to come find them. See that's the point you are missing: The open challenge specifically doesn't work. Cost and inconvenience aside, the fakes are too scared to do it, the real-deal can't be arsed to kill someone they have no beef with, and anyone with an ounce of common sense doesn't want to end up in jail or the morgue going to-the-death because they allowed themselves to be baited by some wannabe on the internet. Thus no-one can be bothered, and nothing happens.

End result? MISSION FAILURE. The only thing that has been achieved is alienating your neighbours. Neighbours that, if you had just kept your mouth shut, might have actually shared some valuable knowledge with you.

I admire your passion for promoting your new-found system, i really do. But i think you've got to realise that your own expertise in this matter extends no further than a few Hollywood movies, and some random speculation based on little more than hearsay from a few individuals (if that). Here you are riling against people who proclaim themselves an authority on things they know very little about, or have very little experience in. And yet in presenting your argument, you yourself have proven guilty of the very same thing.

If there's one thing i can't stand, it's "experts."

 

I really have no stake in another Arnis *erm* Kali group's marketing strategy. If they want to sell themselves as the most badass killers in the world, I say let them. As noted earlier in the thread, they do seem to attract a certain kind of student (a certain kind which I have really no patience for, so thanks to Pekiti for absorbing them).

But to say that nobody has ever come to these challenges is a bit of a stretch. In 2008 my friends and I did go to their open challenge.

 

In 2009, The spring thaw brought out the PTK weevils, and the challenges started first off on another forum.. It got to the point where it involved several family member from both the PTK and DTS groups.. It was the annual family bickering and a lot of the people who were with the stateside contingent from PTK was beating their chest and stating they were superior to the DTS crew.. Well, it escalated to the point where challenges were issued and accepted by family members of both groups.. It also involved some of the elders from both systems and when it got too far out of hand, GT Tortal asked the DTS group to not post anything else in response to the threats.. It continued for a couple of more days, but mostly on the PTK side.. The DTS guys were ready to go and do instead of beating their gums with idle threats.

In these challenge threads, it is primarily the newbies who have been in the ptk group less than a year who do the lip service and start the saber rattling.. It is nothing for this type of action to come up at least once a year.. So it is nothing new with the seniors of the DTS group..

 

I am not really familiar with this DTS thing you speak of. But if anything results in real matches, to establish hierarchy then this is good. The small picture is that it will clear the whole he said/she said abstractions, the bigger picture is that people will train better, faster, smarter because something more is on the line. Benefits is we, the FMA community, get better and develop. That is the point.

 

My point is that challenges matches are good for all of us, and we should encourage it because it is good for all of us.

I don't have to be a grandmaster or some datu chieftain to say that. It's common sense.

The annual open challenge and the fact that everyone cowers is not hearsay.

You and I both, are riling against these "experts", only you take offense to the way I'm saying it. These people disrespecting real Filipino masters and ridiculing their "combativeness" are the same very people who cower at the mention of a challenge. Visit NY and meet these people.

As for Karate Kid, you're missing the point of the analogy and focusing too much on the bullying aspect of the story. And trying to pin me as a bully. I am not here to issue challenges, I'm just pointing out that GMs and Masters just need proper encouraging, so we the general public can get quality training. If Daniel-san wasn't 'encouraged' to fight, then he'd just be playing Karate video games all day, and he'd think that was 'karate'.

 

My only question to you is have you ever been to the Philippines and trained in eskrima as it is taught there or are you going on what everyone else says about the challenge matches and the open challenges?

 

Tae Bo or joining the local cheerleading or dance group would probably suffice. But if there is no combat/aliveness/sparring, then you'll be missing the point of learning FMA.

This is good. It's not the open challenge, but it's good enough. If people are too scared to visit the Philippines for the open challenge, then people need to meet in these gatherings to see if what they are teaching is real and effective. Notice who started the Dog Brothers.

I'm not trying to explain rocket science here or how to embed coded messages in pictures. But when this subject is brought up, alive training/combat testing your techniques, usually the people who get scared take offense, then justify their fear. People shouldn't get offended, we are just discussing encouraging our GMs, masters and instructors to show us what they got for quality control.

 

You call that sparring. I call this sparring. http://vimeo.com/4688098 Can't be tougher than these guys but they don't feel the need to challenge everybody. A lesson about humility.

 

I eventually will, my training is in the lower stages.

 

I just took a random example to contrast to all the patty cake stick banging and stick twirling (without live combat) to show how people should be pushing this art.

Notice who trained the Sayoc Kali guys in the 70s.

 

You and your group are the only ones who answered the challenge (I have to ask around of course to verify your claim), but at face value you are the man.

The irony is that the open challenge was targeted to the many claimants in Europe and the USA, to flush out the chaff from the wheat.

I'm not familiar with your group or you. I know there are virtual unknowns in the Philippines who are really good. There are many poor GMs in the Philippines, who many Europeans and Americans take advantage of so they can go back to their Mcdojos to post pictures and tell stories of a 'new'/'unknown' GM they found.

But my recommendation is that next time you show for the challenge, you should use these forums and get sponsorships from the McDojo GMs and Datus in America and Europe and have them pitch in for your troubles. There is no need for you to carry them for free. Because essentially they are quick to mention your name to justify their absence.

Get them to sponsor you and your group, because these Mcdojo masters are making money off their inaction, then invoking you when convenient.

I bow to you. Would you or your group have any videos on youtube? Again thank you for answering the challenge.

 

These guys do patty cakes and stick twirling and spar like devils. You can't judge the skills and guts of an FMAer by merely picking fragments from what he does.

Yeah, I notice.. it was Remy Presas.

 

Funny. Modern Arnis. Check your facts again.

 

The problem I'm trying to expose is that there are groups who do only patty cakes and stick twirling. They stop there and call what they do FMA. We all know this and turn a blind eye, thus condoning it.

 

good point. man up and call them out. go ahead and list off the groups who do patty cakes and stick twirling, give your name and location, and invite them to prove you wrong. otherwise, you're condoning it. don't forget the fantastic advice given elsewhere in this thread:

tim

 

I'm not going to name names here, because I'll get banned :ban:. As for the rest, that's the reason the open challenge was issued, yearly. This isn't some one man crusade, Pekiti Tirsia and GT Gaje, M. Tim Waid, M. Mel Tortal, other instructors, have offered specific and general open challenges. :bang: Just answer it, stop with the excuses. :Aegis:

 

on this forum, it sure is.

so your excuses for inaction are acceptable (don't want to be banned, only at the beginning of training), but everyone else's aren't? you wouldn't be projecting your fear onto others, would you? hiding behind the name of ptk-global, gaje, and waid, would you? of course not, that would make you an anonymous trash-talker, quick to mention someone else's name to justify your inaction, and you've made it clear that you're against those kind of people. so, come on out from hiding; no one will hurt you.



tim