Sorry if this has been posted before (too lazy to do a proper search ) but if it has just disregard. But I have often thought what other people were taught and/or interpreted many of the classics themselves and how they implemented them into their practice. This thread is meant to be solely for your viewpoint of how the classic is interpreted not meant to be a right/wrong debate. If the classic phrase you put up has a master's commentary please include that, otherwise feel free to include your own. This way we can discuss what the classics mean to us as practitioners. Let's start with a true classic: "It is also said that if the opponent does not move, you do not move. When the opponent makes the slightest move, you move first." by Wang Tsung Yueh Commentary: When sparring an opponent, do not move, but wait for the opponent to move, and then move first. Seems self explanatory doesn't it? Grandmaster Jou once said "Easy say, hard do." So how do you all practice this? Are you at this stage? I am not so I cannot comment with any finality on this idea, but here it goes: With the main idea behind Tai Chi being relaxed or more specifically "Song" this allows the body to have a quicker reaction time. Basically to me it means that if you are "hard" or muscles are tight, in order to react one must first release other muscles to react to a changing incoming force. So one must develop a new kind of sensitivity and relaxation that improves reaction time. Any thoughts? Am I far off for those that can do this?
The way I interpret this is to know when your opponent is going to move in advance, rather than be forced to react to it. Watch his eyes, watch his body language, etc., and make your move an instant before he makes his. You'll catch him off guard.
I agree with Sandus here... almost like a pre-emptive strike... Unfortunately I will only be able to react here as all my "classics" books have been boxed in preparation for the move... (I hate moving)... although now I may have to dig one or two out and face the wrath of the wife...
We do a couple of specific exercises to train good reflexes of this kind. 1) Two students stand opposite each other. The attacker raises their fists and the defender has to keep their arms at their sides. Then the attacker throws out a right lead punch and the defender explodes into a lead punch, beating them to it (punching to the sternum or body with body armour if required). Then the original attacker tries a cross punch and the defender has to beat them to it. Obviously it is easier because you know what's coming, but it still develops good reflexes. The next stage is for the attacker to throw out either fist. It is just a specific training exercise, but a useful one. We train it with pushes first in reference to "to pressure on the left, I yield the left side, to pressure on the right, the right side melts away." This trains the tongbei (through the back) principle as they learn that as their left shoulder withdraws, they can be striking or pushing with their right hand and vice versa (their retaliatory strike or push will be to their partner's centre line). 2) I stand facing a student, both in guard stances, and I then throw out a sudden punch. If the student shifts their weight and turns correctly, using that to drive their arm to chop and deflect the punching arm, they get out of the way in time and get to perform their response (grabbing my forearm and doing a rending chop to the throat). If they don't get further away and shift their body out of the firing line, trying instead to deal with the attack with just their arm, they get hit.
I also agree with Sandus on this one, but I'd like to add that this is also written as, "Start later, arrive sooner". This can also be read as referring to the strategy of waiting for your opponent to initiate an attack, rather than taking the initiative yourself. When he/she does, you react and intercept their attack (arriving first) and turn it to your advantage. To me, this is the very essence of Taiji - transforming the opponent's power into your own. This ties in with the other classic saying about giving up yourself and following the other. It requires that you be empty of intention and open to take what comes up.
I understand what you are all saying and it makes sense, but what about a feint etc. Do you just train to observe to such an extent that you recognize the feint? JK, I like your training methods we have done some stuff very similar and I agree with what you are mentioning.
In a word...yes. Sensitivity training is paramount for me. It is possible to detect micro movements in your 'opponant'...messages recieved from the brain..but before any muscular action has commenced. And if faced with another TaiJiQuan exponant..to send false micro movements to cause disruption and confusion. :Angel:
As far as feints go, you have to learn to read intent as well as motion. You have to be able to see if the attack it a committed one or not. On top of that, attacks don't just happen as punches, they can be kicks, or grabs for grappling or qinna, so you have to read the type of attack as well. People non-verbally communicate this information with "tells" or small signals that you can read. Good Taiji people learn to still their bodies and minimize the amount of telegraphing that goes on. Learning to read intent takes time, and is mostly a function of experience – it's not like looking for any particular signals, but more of a feelings you get when viewing the gestalt of the situation. You have to be very careful in drilling this kind of response that you don't get "twitchy" people that bite on everything. Attacks have to pass a certain threshold of intensity and distance before commit to your response. It's good to proceed slowly, letting the person being trained to stay relaxed and mindful, not fearful – then gradually increasing the intensity.
Something I'd just like to add as another consideration is that I've never seen a feint used in a real fight. A feint in competitive sparring, yes, but not in an actual fight. It's just something to think about.
But Sugar Ray did it all the time, am gonna agree with Sandyman. Reading . the body, the intention. Maybe entice with the your position - give him a target. Show him the void.. :Alien: Also agree with 'easy say hard do!'
see his intent and then act. You 'know' him, but he doesn't know you. Be able to read his body language so that as soon as he starts to move, you know where he is going. Therefore you can take a shortcut and head him off at the pass. What Sandus said. If the guy isn't going to move you may have to lure him in somehow.
Like I said, I've never seen a feint used in a REAL fight, as in a street fight. That said, I did just send a couple of guys packing outside the supermarket who were egging each other on to bottle the Asian security guard. As they were waving bottles about, I got a staff out of the van and charged over and told them where to go. I did use a subtle feint towards one of their faces when he asked "what are you going to do with that?" (referring to the staff.) But the fight luckily didn't get past the posturing stage. I guess feints of a kind go on a bit during the posturing stage.
Well do you all think there is something to be said for the lightness or relaxation aspect of it as well? What I mean is not only seeing your opponents intent, but also being so relaxed or "empty" that you feel it coming on i.e. pressure change in the hands (when doing push hands) maybe feel a shift in the stance etc? Or is this what some mean by "seeing"?
Regarding emptiness, it can be good to train your reflexes up to fight from an unready or wuji stance (arms hanging at your sides.) You need to be very relaxed but alert to move fast enough. Obviously if you had advance warning of an incoming attack you might want to get into some kind of guard stance, but the first moment a person becomes aware they are being assaulted is often just after the first blow has landed. So it is good to train from an unready position. If you can develop your reflexes to respond in time from that, fighting from a guard stance becomes relatively that much easier.
It is about reading the intention to attack from the opponent. The instant you see them make the decision to attack you attack first. If you wait for them to actually attack then most likely you won't be fast enough to attack first. As for feints, I have seen them used lots of times in "real" fights. The old glasgow feint to the head, kick to the groin is a popular one. The Bear.
Yeah feint high , go low or vice verca.. that'll work. I agree it should translate "no hesitation, mash 'em up fast". or "they blink, kill 'em".
I think the principle you are speaking of is debana waza the ability to strike as the opponent's technique is emerging.I once said (almost jokingly) that in answer to an attack I would prefare to get my "responce" in first. My manner of training in this principle is to have in mind the intention to attack, this and nothing else, no tactics no particular technique.Debana is more a mastery of timing,distancing and decisiveness.It is these principles more so than techniques that allow the use of pre-emptive strikes. below a sudden decisive change in timing and distancing negates the attacker' INTENTION to strike. regards koyo As for feints. They are most dangerous to use against one who shall "respond" with a technique which goes from aware to 100% attack in an instant.
I think if your going to do a feint you should already have an attack in mind so you could argue that that is just part of your own 0 -100 attack. But I see what your saying koyo.. cheers edit. i guess the guesstimation of these things comes back to the reading of what's in front of you.
