That 180 degree turn in the form....

In Cheng Man Ching's form, there is move where you turn 180 degrees, then raise both of your arms and do a push kick, striking with the heel. A little googling pinpoints it as Movement 40 or 42 in the the 108 Yang posture form.

My question is this: what is the point of the 180 degree turn??

I've read some people turn on the heel (which is what I do), and some say turn on the ball. I have an answer to this question, and why it is described when discussing applications to the form's movements. But I am wondering what are other people's take on this particular move.

Thank you all for your wisdom once again. I truly appreciate everyone's response on this forum.

 

Most of the TCMA forms are designed to start from one place and end back to the same place also face the same direction. In order to do that, you can't just move forward forever. You have to turn around.

For example, when you do

- "step back repulse monkey", why do you need to step back?
- "cloud hands", why do you only move to your left?

There is no good reason for it.

 

Thanks for your reply YouKnowWho!! I do appreciate it. That's exactly what my master told us all in our last class - there is no reason for it.

Now - let me share with you the entire story. Going back about 2 years ago, when two other students and I were really nitpicking the form, we were told this by our master: the turn on the heel is a demonstration of your balance when rooted. If you are rooted properly to the ground, you should be able to maintain your balance when making the turn. That is the trick and purpose of this move, which is incredibly difficult to do as it is.

This made sense. After all, why would they put such a bizarre and difficult move for no apparent reason at all??

Fast forward to our last class - where the newer students are telling me that there is no reason for the 180 degree turn. We decide to ask our master for his word on the subject, and he says that there is no application or reason for the turn - it is nothing.

My heart sank. I went through this in detail 2 years ago. I've been explaining it to students ever since. I was corrected over, and over, and over again about this. Only to be told something completely different. On top of this, he tells everyone that what I explained to them is completely wrong and nuts. I'm already used to losing face with new students over things, but seriously, this is becoming frustrating when I am told one thing, and 5 other students are being told 5 other things. I'm at a lost about what to do.

 

A good form was designed to use a valid technique to turn. A bad form was not. The day when you try to create your own form, you will find out that by using a valid technique to turn will be a good test for your deep understanding of your art.

In your MA system, what technique that will require you to turn 180 degree?

 

One application of a 180 degree turn and kick would be if you were being attacked from the front and behind, so you need to turn quickly. Seems rather obvious, surely?

Your 'root' shouldn't be in the ground, it should be in your centre. If you are rooted in the ground then you may find it rather difficult to move! Refer to the Taiji classics and what they say about the importance of lightness. You cannot turn quickly (or do anything quickly) if you don't have lightness.

 

As Johnno says, it's surely a pretty obvious switch from dealing with one attack in front, to one behind.

Also, you need to know how to turn. Working on it in the form allows you to study weight, foot positions, spirals, balance.. everything else that goes into a stable structure..

 

Thank you all very much for your replies. Aaradia, I did not realize such intent in my post until you pointed it out. You are right. I will talk with my master, in private, about this matter. Thank you for bringing that up.

As far as rooting Johnno, I've heard you mention this before about rooting from the center. I was originally told to think of rooting like a blade of grass in the wind. The wind blows it in different directions, and the upper half of the grass moves with all directions of the wind. But the lower half stays still and firm, and so it should be with our bodies when we are rooted. Would you say this comment goes along with or against what you describe as rooting??

BTW thank you Johnno and Dan Bian for mentioning that it is to attack someone behind you. I still think it is pretty complex of a maneuver. I actually see people stumble on this turn in the park frequently (other Tai Chi practitioners from other schools).

 

Both! Our lower half always has to be stable, to support our upper half. Even when standing on one leg we should be stable and balanced. But at the same time we must be light, and able to move quickly in any direction. At any point in the form we should be able to switch into reverse.

That's my understanding.

We have at least one kick weher you turn through 180 degrees first. And another one where you turn through 360 degrees first. The reason behind that is basically to feint a retreat and then counter attack. Do you have something like that in your form, as a matter of interest?

 

Yes!! I know which turn you are talking about. Yes it is in my form, near the end of it. It's snake creeps down, cross both hands as fists, upwards, pull hands down to your right side, open palms with right in front, left in back, bring both hands to the left side, then 360 degree turn with the right foot (the heel), and crescent kick....

Sorry I don't know the actual names on hand. Hope the description can give you a good idea of what I'm talking about.

 

'Step back repulse monkey' has practical applications, in terms of defending yourself while retreating.

'Cloud hands' always goes to the left... unless you do the 'mirror' form, in which case you always move to the right!

 

It can also be used as

- "push" your opponent's shoulder,
- "pull" his leg below his knee.

This will require your forward momentum.

 

It's basically a Brush Knee Twist Step in reverse, i.e. the same action only stepping backwards. Obviously the application will be slightly different, because you are moving backwards rather than forwards. But they should both feel the same when you are practising them. The only difference should be the direction in which the scenery is moving!

 

nefariusmdk----

In Cheng's method as in all Yang derived lines you pivot on the heel for the 180. I know of no Yang forms with the half "spin" 180 where the ball is the pivot point.

As Johnno stated just pivoting to kick someone behind you is a pretty obvious elementary app.Cheng describes one such application in Ben's translation of "13 Chapters". Do not forget that "one motion means many motions"- so there are many apps that don't necessarily look like a picture perfect representation of the move in a form.

Like that 360 degree spin in the last sequence- which can be turning as you tie up/hit and/or low sweep the opponent,with the sweep at the end also being at the opponents ankle/knee level even tho' in most forms it's executed anywhere from waist to head height.It's more likely in application you'd step back and around with the left foot rather than spin on the ball of the right. If the intent was to tie up and/or down the opponent with the first part of the move then the second sweep should never happen anyway.


Do you look into apps from sources outside your class? Not necessarily to do them but just to broaden one's perspective? There's Cheng's descriptions,Wang,Pei-sheng's Wu book,Yang,Jwing -ming's works...that's some.




Mr. W. -----

That stepping backward in Repulse can be a sweep.Or a knee.Or a knee followed by a sweep.Or a back kick/stomp. Or....

Apps are dictated by circumstances.In that context the postures as executed in a form are simply general templates.