Terrible Insomnia after training :(

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by MindTricks, Apr 24, 2013.

  1. Count Duckula

    Count Duckula Valued Member

    It's a boost of chemical substances in a concentration much higer than what you get from normal intake, and might affect you in several ways. Some of them beneficial, some not.

    Echinacea is a natural product, often advised in winter times as a natural way to strengthen the immune system. In any form I've tried it in, it gives me extreme stomach aches. There is one brand of bottled water which always gives me diarhoea, for no other reason than that it has certain elements in a much higher concentration than other brands of bottled water. Certain innocent herbs or nuts have the same effect on me as downing half a bottle of vodka or having a hangover.

    So while ZMA may not be a drug according to your definition, a significantly increased intake can have side effects. Btw, if ZMA is not a drug, you could argue that lithium is not a drug, yet lithium is used as an antidepressant.

    A normal body should get everything it needs from a balanced diet. Adding high isolated doses of specific things is going to have an effect (which is what you're hoping for or you wouldn't take them) but they're also going to have side effects. Just saying it's not a drug will not change that.
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2013
  2. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    General consensus was to take it a couple hours after food. I'll put my hand up and say I haven't tried it any other way.
    In the end, I got good deep sleep out of it.

    Just very confusing night imagery.
  3. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Your nervous system is processing vast amounts of information while you're learning these skills. As the experience becomes less novel, you should see these effects lessen.

    Visualization, usually in the form of dreams and daydreams, play an important role in learning new skills and laying down neural pathways. Ever played a video game for so long, it feels like it's projected on the back of your eyelids whenever you close your eyes (I haven't done this since Metal Gear 2 on the NES, but I guess it still happens with new ones)? Same thing - your nervous system is assimilating new knowledge and skills.

    I personally find trying to visualize in great detail sends me off to sleep. My unconscious mind starts filling-in for my conscious imaginings until it all turns to dream. I found a direct correlation between how able I was to fight in dreams and my confidence in techniques in the real world, I've also had MA lessons in dreams and other weirdness.

    Long & short:
    1. Don't dismiss this as merely an inconvenience; there's important stuff going on here.
    2. Don't try to fight it, you may be creating part of your problem yourself by doing that.
    3. In regards to the above, see if allowing this imagery to go where it wants when you go to sleep actually helps (even though that may sound counter-intuitive).

    Here's a link to show I'm not making it up or quoting pseudo-scientific quackery: http://www.newscientist.com/mobile/article/dn18082-dreams-of-doom-help-gamers-learn.html
  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I've never had a problem getting off the sleep (quite the opposite most nights) but a sure fire way to ease me into sleep is to visualise myself doing the pinan katas from 1-5.
    I don't think I've ever reached number 5.

    Other than that I can recommend working 12 hour days, driving 45 minutes each way and getting a toddler to wake you up at 6:30. Get's me off to sleep really well. Usually when I'm sat watching telly. :)
  5. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    A substance that has a physiological effect when ingested or otherwise introduced into the body, in particular.
    It's perfectly accurate.
  6. CrowZer0

    CrowZer0 Assume formlessness.

    It is not "my definition".

    Supplements are not considered drugs by Food Administration's (FDA) etc. Supplements are considered safe until proven unsafe.

    Drugs are considered unsafe until proven safe under clinical trials.

    ZMA is just Zinc and Magnesium, what you get in chicken, in oats, in oysters. Just a specific ration and concentration is what makes it ZMA.
  7. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    ZMA was made to correct dietary imbalances as the american public weren't taking in enough of certain things so surely an improved diet could substitute for ZMA
  8. querist

    querist MAP Resident Linguist?

    A little background information: I am a physician. My specialty is NOT sleep medicine, but having had sleep problems for years and having been under treatment for said sleep problems I am fairly well-versed in the topic.

    Simon plugs his own articles because, for the most part, they are well-researched, well-written, and they are medically valid. I've read many of his articles and I've found no fault in any of them. Simon is not a physician (as far as I know), but his extensive experience in the martial arts and his own research has allowed him to know quite a bit more than the average person with regard to many of these matters. I know more about them by virtue of my education and professional license.

    Simon also has a rare gift for taking complex subjects and making them readily accessible to laymen.

    And since this is primarily a British site, why does the US FDA definition of "drug" matter?
  9. Count Duckula

    Count Duckula Valued Member

    Semantics for the purpose of legal CYA. Any substance taken for the purpose of achieving a change in the body can and will have side effects. All this talk about the legal definition of whether something is a drug or supplement is just legalese technicalities.

    Echinacea is just a harmless natural supplement as well, sold in every store that sells natural supplements. That doesn't change the fact that taking it in any type of preparation causes me to curl up in fetal position on the floor, waiting for the pain to subside.
  10. Zinowor

    Zinowor Moved on

    Can't he just distract himself by doing something else that's less intense, like reading a book or doing some reading on the internet?

    Always works for me and if I really can't get the techniques out of my head I just practice them in the air until I'm satisfied. Usually takes around 10 minutes and then I just take my mind off it.

    And I've noticed that if I keep myself warm, I get sleepy too.
  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    In the UK ZMA is considered a food suppliment, whilst melatonin is considered a drug,

    Important to note - melatonin isnt a sleeping tablet, as much as a regulator of waking and sleeping patterns.
  12. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I use melatonin due to travel/jetlag and it works wonders. The dreams I have on it are unusually deep and vivid though. I think it's a winner but its certainly powerful so might want to watch any side effects, should they exist.

    Ironically for me I find myself crashing after 1-2hrs post training, which is a pain since I train at lunch.
  13. matveimediaarts

    matveimediaarts Underappreciated genius

    I second the melatonin suggestion. I sleep deeper with it and fall asleep faster.
  14. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    These over simplistic views show why you should probably refrain from suggesting people take pills. For starters the FDA are very inconsistent about the difference and are frequently out of step with the rest of the world. Melatonin is a good example of this, in the US it's a supplement but in most other places it's a medicine.
    The difference in the legal status that you've not mentioned is that medicines have to prove that they work. Therefore supplements have little safety testing and little evidence, so why recommend them?
    Your last statement is doubly ridiculous as firstly it's like saying "it's just potassium like you get in oranges and bananas" and secondly because magnesium is a widely used medicinal drug.
    Regardless of legal or regulatory definitions if you are taking a compound for medicinal purposes then it's a drug, and the fact that it's a poorly regulated one shouldnt make you feel confident to recommend it to random strangers.
    Besides which neither one is especially useful for the OP's problem.
  15. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Non pharmacological interventions you should try include routine, meditation, avoiding computer screens, and white noise.
  16. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    This would be very true if it weren't for the fact that very few Americans actually get their daily value of what they need on a daily basis. People don't eat 5 fruits and vegtables a day, and even if they did, if you aren't growing your own or buy super overpriced organic stuff, you are injesting chemicals that can take away from what your body needs or worse, taking in chemicals that could possibly be carcinogenic.

    I take a handful of supplements a day. Some of them I need and have helped me greatly, others are antioxidants to help me with past family medical issues that I would like to avoid. If I take in to many vitamins... I pee them out. I don't see it as a big deal.
  17. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Having worked steady nights for almost a decade, there are a number of ways you can go about getting deeper sleep. I don't get as much as I would like, thus I have to make the most out of everything I can. Too many people are quick to drug a problem when in actuality you can fix a lot of your sleeping issues with a sensible approach.

    What time is class compared to when you go to sleep? If class runs until 9pm and you're trying to get to sleep at 10pm, that can be an issue. On my class day where I'm out until 9pm and can actually sleep that night, when I get home it's all about de-stressing and preparing for sleep. I avoid the TV, have a healthy snack, do some light stretching, then climb into bed with a nonfiction book and read only by my bedside lamp. When I come home from work in the mornings, I do a similar routine - I try to avoid the TV, eat a good breakfast, do some light stretching, and in general take it easy. In this way I'm doing some things that relax me while also avoiding anything that can further stimulate me. Establishing some kind of routine like this will work wonders for you.
  18. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    This isn't necessarily a problem, as the 5 a day recommendation is just part of an advertising campaign that has now become part of folklore.

    It is believed so much that the UK Government use the 5 a day as part of their healthy eating campaigns.
  19. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Get yourself a high speed blender and it's super easy to do. My wife, kids, and I typically have a morning smoothie that contains a lot of fruit and veggies in the morning. One of our favorites is a banana, 4 cups of spinach leaves, 4 cups of kale, 2 tbsp of peanut butter, 1 cup of milk, a tbsp of flaxseed, and a scoop of vanilla protein powder. It is awesome, and you never taste either the kale or the spinach. It's basically a green-colored PB banana smoothie.
  20. John R. Gambit

    John R. Gambit The 'Rona Wrangler

    I've struggled with insomnia for years, and if correcting your routine doesn't help, I experience virtually no side-effects on melatonin or camomile tea. If you try melatonin, I recommend breaking a tablet in half and trying a 1.5 mg dose before using the usual 3 mg doses sold.

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