"Temple" style: Tai Chi history question

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Silly, May 30, 2007.

  1. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    ... Forgot to mention that I became his only sliding door student and I've inherited his Woe-Dang skills. Happy to say that I've increased the Flame of Sever Suffocation to approx 25 feet ... with the aid of my live in Mexican nanny's secret 'erbal cuisine.
    I'm sorry to say that I'm not able to elucidate further ... unless you want to become my kitchen door student ... and there's one more vacancy as my garden-shed door student ... just PM me (and I'll give you a destination for those Western Union cheques).
  2. WuJiSarx

    WuJiSarx New Member

    I'm not sure if I fully understand your question. I'll try my best to answer it, but if I missed it entirely, please let me know.

    When I mentioned that those who do not feel it (are not sensitive) to empty force will still adjust their balance, I did mean those trained or not trained. Many times a day our body will subtly adjust our equilibrium, sometimes without our conscious mind being aware. Those putting conscious effort to feel that adjustment will feel what empty force is doing to them. Those (especially MA practicioners, but even non) who have trained hard to always maintain balance may not feel this adjustment, even though a third person watching will see them adjust.

    Where this is most important in Tai Chi Chuan is in sensitivity. If one can feel the opponent adjust, or cause him even to make the slightest adjustment, in that split second the opponent is vulnerable. If one were to strike during that time, then the opponent's mind has to do two things at once, both adjust and defend, and usually defending isn't an option as stability takes priority. This is how many masters are able to keep the upperhand.

    WD and Master Tam (please correct me if this is wrong, WD) has taught that position, timing and structure will always overcome speed and strength. The split second mentioned above is the timing, which is how much can be accomplished without the use of any force. How much force is really needed if the opponent is already in a weakend state by being off balance?
  3. jnanasakti

    jnanasakti Valued Member

    its good too see there on people on this forum who have experienced real jing, "empty force power". as I stated at the beginning of this topic, people who've expereienced it will understand and, then by doing research into energy centers, they will understand how it is burgeoned, and it won't be as mysterious, but at the same time they'll have opened their horizons on what life really consists of; far far past physical matter (even electricity is purely invisible; my physics background speaking). but to those who haven't experienced it and are too insular to attempt to understand it, they'll never understand...but then again, how can you tell a person living in a small world, that they live in a small world? - you can't, they wouldn't understand.
  4. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    The problem I have with this BS, is that you don't/can't explain it in terms of physics, even though you try to give weight to your opinion because of your back-ground in physics ... giving authority to your opinion of "empty force" via association.

    Perception is subjective and we also choose the factors to support that perception ... how can you know the size of anyone's world but your own? You can't!
  5. jnanasakti

    jnanasakti Valued Member

    but isn't that my point, life is beyond what physics can ever explain...a real hard thing for someone who is quixotic about science to understand. the only reason i reference physics to to try to speak to you in language that you might understand...

    science is but a small part of reality; but to someone who thinks the world of science, that is the cap on their "perception". hence, i can know the size of another's world, because my cognition is greater.
  6. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    who's quixotic about science? People look for cause and effect all the time.
    The only reason you referred to science is because you're trying to create the impression that your opinion carries weight because maybe among other things you have a back-ground in science.
    I hope people find in MA to fulfill their needs and perceptions, but I think this stuff I read from you amounts to MA snake oil.
    I think also it's a pity that other people might think that you actually know what you're talking about ... because I know you don't :), and maybe people will just have to make their own minds and travel through their own experiences.
    I hope people may experience what is real, MA masturbation is bad for your health and it's fake.
  7. jnanasakti

    jnanasakti Valued Member

    Its hard for you to accept that you live in a small world. Thats fine and expected. But if you lost your ego, you might learn something. I study under the lineage of Waysun Liao. I've had direct experience of jing as denoted in his books, their are others on this forum who've had similar experiences and so that is validation enough; for what reason would I have to convince you otherwise? Do you see me shopping around books or trying to sell you something? For what reason? If you want to challenge your beliefs, I suggest you take a Waysun Liao's his school and find out for yourself. Again, you missed the point about science. I refer to science because I understand it; and re-read the posts, its simple; I'm simply speaking to you in a language you might understand. This notion should not be that hard for you to understand.
  8. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    How did the jing feel like (as denoted in his books)? heh.
    Jing jang jung ... blah ... Inspect your beliefs son, before life hits you on your back-side.
    BTW, best of luck in your search, and here's a handy hint ,,, none of us (including you!) are as wise as we like to think we are ;) ... except me maybe ... I'm supremely wise ROFLMAO!
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2008
  9. TheRazorsEdge

    TheRazorsEdge New Member

    I have met at least a dozen or more of Liaos's students including those who have been practicing for over 30 years. It looks like this to me:

    20 years ago or more he was teaching good stuff. I haven't seen any students who have been with him for less than 10-15 years who have in significant skill. Some of the older guys are really good and really nice. I know the training is very different than it used to be, because the older guys told me so.

    The newer students seem to be way way off in some fantasy land. The older ones seem to have some base in reality. I don't think Liao actually teaches any Taichi anymore. If he does, just barely. It's all student teaching.

    I think anyone with a solid six months of Jiujitsu could take out virtually any of the students who have less than ten years of taichi practice under there belts.

    Even the guys who have been with him for over 20 years still say he hasn't given them everything which is very interesting since Liao himself was in training for less than 10.

    I have touched hands in a teaching environment with Liao about half a dozen times. He is really really good! And, yes soft like a willow. Truely amazing. Very powerful.

    To Liao, from his mouth, as I understood him say it, the purpose of taichi is to purify and return to the Mother, the Dao itself. I believe that is true.

    It is also a nice excuse for students who don't want to face reality. They can just pretend that their taichi is good because they are "returning to the Dao." When someone puts them on the ground or into the wall they can respond with "That was really physical," or "Taichi is not a martial art," or any other nonsense that will help them justify the fact that they don't have anything to show for their training. I feel really sad for them. Especially because Liao is so good.

    He was trained in a Daoist temple by a teacher who no one seems to know, of course that can add to the mystique. He was also trained by another wandering Daoist. He came to the US in his early 20's. He is super good.

    So, is his the one an only true taichi? It is hard to contemplate that seriously.

    On another note:

    Sorry if this has already been addressed. I may have missed something in the 15 pages of posts.

    I have also touched hands in a teaching environment with Adam Mizner and also had long conversations with him. He is also really really good AND he teaches really really well! And gives freely of his knowledge. He also believes in the ultimate spiritual purpose of taichi.

    If you want to call someone's teacher's taichi BS, then you should probably be ready to face their students. I can tell you that if I was a student with four years of training under Liao, I would definitely want to brush up on all of my "Taichi is not a martial art," and "That felt really physical," type of excuses before I crossed hands with one of Mizners students. The same goes for 10 and 20 year students, but I don't think the older Liao students live in the same fog as the newer ones so, it's a nonissue.

    So, maybe Liao has the one and only ture taichi maybe he doesn't, but Adam Mizner's taichi is not BS in any way, shape or form.

    Editorial closed.
  10. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    The whole point about origins, and using references like; "Temple" Shaolin, WuTang, Okinawan, Japanese Jiu Jitus, Brazilian Jiu Jtsu, Korea Three Kingdoms, etc., isnt about finding one and being satisfied. These are used to add intrique and bragging rights. The merits of the art, should keep it in check within the reality of the current era. Martial arts were in constant evolution, and none will ever lay claim to be better, just because it came from wherever, or whoever. Once there are statements making such references, instead of creating credibilty, it causes confusion and derogation.
  11. TempleTaiChi

    TempleTaiChi New Member

    Waysun Liao is the Real Deal!

    I know I’m almost three years behind on the topic discussed here. Nevertheless, as a senior disciple of Master Waysun Liao, and a devoted follower of his teachings for more than twelve years, I can testify that he is the real deal. I have been in the martial arts for nearly thirty years; I have met tons of Tai Chi practitioners, many of whom claim to be a “master.” And I have never known or met anyone even remotely as powerful or knowledgeable as Waysun Liao. He is the world’s leading authority on the topic of Tai Chi, and all would do well to trust what he says. Please do not take my word for it, however; go to his school and see for yourself.

    And just to clear things up for those who may read this discussion in the future—in his book, Tai Chi Classics, Translation and Commentary by Waysun Liao, he does not state or otherwise imply that Tai Chi originated with a modification of Shaolin Kung Fu. What Master Liao wrote was:

    “Tai Chi thought and its Yin/Yang philosophy soon developed as a temple-style organization based on the model of the Shaolin Temple. A modified form of monastic training was adopted in order to promote the sophisticated system [Tai Chi] in missionary fashion.” (chapter 1, page 10)​

    You see, Master Liao clearly affirms here that a temple-style organization was based on the model of the Shaolin Temple—not the art of Tai Chi itself. Master Liao clarifies in the previous paragraph that this organization was founded at Wudang Mountain for the practice of Taoism. It is the monastic model pioneered by Shaolin monks that inspired the monasticism of the Wudang Temple—not Tai Chi itself. At no point whatsoever in the book is it stated or implied that Tai Chi was adopted from a modified Shaolin Kung Fu practice. In fact, Master Liao goes on to clearly distinguish between Shaolin Kung Fu and Tai Chi, and further expounds, quite eloquently, why and how Temple-Style Tai Chi deserves distinction from the Tai Chi taught bearing certain family surnames.

    Furthermore, it is true that much of the Tai Chi being taught today is merely an empty exercise, void of its powerful potential. Anyone who actually understands real Tai Chi knows this to be true. Master Liao clearly explains how this happened, and never states that everything but Temple-Style Tai Chi is empty—only that much of it is. In fact, there are many people in the world teaching what they call “Temple-Style,” and they’re system is watered down as well.

    Waysun Liao is a real master of consummate knowledge and wisdom. He has worked his entire life to preserve the true Temple-Style Tai Chi and other profound Taoist practices. He is more than worthy of our respect.

    I sincerely hope this clears things up. :hat:
  12. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    Why the heck did you necro this thread?
  13. wujidragon

    wujidragon Valued Member

    Waysun Liao is the Real Deal!

    This whole post seems very insecure. Waysun Liao wrote a decent book, and his skills may be very high. But, there are many out there with high level skills and honestly who cares? You can only tread one path at a time and get anywhere, you don't have to defend the Master or teacher of the path you are on. To do so only makes you look insecure in your knowledge and self being to which I might suggest means you really aren't sure deep down that it is the path for you. When you have to look at what others are doing or teaching then you do not deep inside trust the information you have been given. That is a significant point because many have only that, information.... it is not yet their knowledge and will never become their knowledge if they keep looking around to see what others are doing. When it is time to take a turn or a different path, the opportunity or teacher will appear and you will follow. But, there aren't any secrets it is all in plain site for everyone to see.

    The my sifu is better than all of yours crap is childish, who cares and if the boat you're on is so much nicer than everyone elses why bother to defend it, as it and its students should stand or float on their own merits, not on a story or a book or a lineage. The lineage is in the touch not the intellect!
  14. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Whatever floats the boat. Some use their's to cross the river, some use their's to fish the river, and some just go down the river in theirs without a paddle !' :)
  15. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    This "boat" was sunk for years and then recently pull out of the bottom of the lake. Why???
  16. brianhbmb

    brianhbmb New Member

    still looking for someone to push hands with?

    I live right near Evanston and I'm always looking for someone to push hands with my teacher is Kimball Paul, a well known student of Master Liao
  17. mcoh1030

    mcoh1030 New Member


    Thank you. I have been following this site/thread for sometime now. Your explaination is acurate and to the point.

    Better late than never.

  18. fabie

    fabie New Member

    Hello I am here in the northside of Chicago and looking to connect with other temple stylist if you will. I am a student of Master José Perez who is one of the earliest student of Master Waysun Liao....
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

  20. fabie

    fabie New Member

    Why? The Temple Style Tai Chi lives on! :)

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