Taoist Tai Chi

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by BazC, Feb 23, 2008.

  1. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    EastWinds, thanks for the reply. Personally, I think there is plenty of force in TJQ, or at least if your trying to use it in a real context. I think relying solely on neutralising and redirection will only get you in trouble. In fact I think the most usefull aspect me TJQ is that it teaches you to issue massive force in a very small space and in a multitude of angles which relate perfectly to the arts close range strategy. If this was not true, IMO there would be no need for fa jing/li in TJQ. At the end of the day, you dont want your opponent getting up after you have neutralised and redirected him towards the ground or away from you, thats just for training. I want my opponent to be down for the count. After or before redirecting and/or neutralising an opponent I would want to add my force to him, whether it be a strike or a throw derived via sound body mechanics and tension/relaxation balance. Some of the SPH vid shows just that, off balance the opponent and discharge a massive force on to him.
  2. East Winds

    East Winds Valued Member

    El Medico and Coudhandz,

    I have to admit to suffering from a bit of paranoia when I hear the terms force or strength being used when referring to taiji techniques or applications. You will both know that after finding an opponents centre, it takes absolutely no effort to uproot him. I have been on the receiving end of far too many "sumo wrestlers" in push hands exercises to have any sympathy with the use of force or strength. I think one of the worst things to have happened in Taijiquan is the introduction of Push Hands "competitions". Push hands should be used as an exercise to train Ting Jin, sensitivity, and the four basic Jins of Peng, Lu, Ji and An, as well as rooting and training to invest in loss. Someone on this board posted a beautiful example of how push hands should be used a couple of months ago involving a Chen style student. It is well worth looking at it again.

    Very best wishes
  3. East Winds

    East Winds Valued Member


    I agree absolutely with most of what you are saying (not it all mid you!!!) but please see the last post on the "Some tremendous modern taiji" thread.

    Very best wishes
  4. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    I'm not too hard on this point.

    Sure,when I joined my 2nd teacher he spent the last 40 minutes or so of the class repeatedly blasting me off my feet.And I was not a newcomer to TC or crossing hands w/people.

    But it sure as heck didn't look like that 'Frisco demo.

    Nobody's going to fault someone in a demo for being obviously superior to the folks they demo on.It is only a demo.But what's performed in a demo should be a demo of what can realistically be developed.I'll wager regardless how
    helpless you were at your teacher's hands you didn't fall so quietly as shown there in 'Frisco.

    No one's denying that people's balance can be caught and they can fly,be dumped,etc.But what really happens to them is not looking like the 'Frisco demo.

    So yeah,it is false advertising.I've seen a lot of people without a prayer at the hands of someone else in a ph setting,but they didn't repeatedly look like that.Even as they repeatedly got tossed.Even beginners.

    I personally feel such unrealistic demos aren't good.I don't care how many new students show up at one's door.It's not an honest representation.I don't care how you want to rationalize it regarding trying to attract students.

    EW-someone wrote,and I'm sorry I can't remember who,that it was not right to use strength,but it was not right to not use strength.It's how it's applied.

    Ben Lo also said something about TC folks use strength,but a lesser percentage worth than other folks use.

    After all, if when moving,other than just relaxing and falling down,your muscles are firing.Hence,you're using strength.A very slight amount,maybe,but still...
    If you don't think so,see if you can find a lab willing to hook you up and see if your muscles don't fire when you move.

    It's relative.What feels effortless to you could feel excessive to someone on a higher level.

    I think TC folks should just fight.PH is a training method,and not a very interesting spectator sport most of the time.I don't think one trains TO invest in loss.One invests in loss whilst training correctly.See CMC's explanation of this term which he coined.
  5. weiliquan

    weiliquan Valued Member

    It don't look right,on the iron shirt thing he flexed his muscles and the guy flew off.This is not right. The one legged thing,no. In all i don't like that video.
    I also don't like seeing matching sets of P/H but, It does show that they do at least have some deep understanding of the art. But you and I both know it does not go like that at all.People get ****ed at me because i speak the truth. They don't like me for it. which i dont understand.
    san shou training is much closer to what i do like.But the push hands we do here is totaly real. I am allowed to use anything i want including kickbox,karate,jujitsu,taiji,or environmental weapons,same for him. I'll tell you the truth he never not for 1 second changes from using only taiji. that is so impressive,that i just had to learn it! And it don't look nothing like G.M.Huang. I'm going by what people tell me about him
    Oh and everything is done with no gear.none but we do hold back the speed, (not the contact) of the strikes.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2008
  6. weiliquan

    weiliquan Valued Member

    Oh, El medico: No i wasn't helpless i did O.k.
    It was the rooting,redirecting,and Iron shirt that threw me off.Personally i didn't think it was real at that time. this was because i was like everyone else out there. starting off with a negative, saying "this is b.s.,that is b.s."but man when the guys right in your living room who does have it", then what.
    maybe one day you could come down and sample the goods,about a 2 hour drive.would be fun.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2008
  7. East Winds

    East Winds Valued Member

    El Medico,

    I really think we are singing from the same song sheet. We are just reading it from slightly different angles!!!!

    Many thanks for your input. Much appreciated

    Very best wishes
  8. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    EW-yeah,I think we're pretty much reading the same.Just semantics, I guess.

    weili- in the spring.Not into long drives in the winter.

    I don't start off w/ a negative,I just apply critical analysis.Like I would for anything.It's not that I'm not aware that some folks can do some out of the ordinary things.But when R.W.Smith took Anton Geesink to Wang,Shu-chin for a Hsing I corkscrew to his abdomen,starting w/his fist already in contact, Geesink was not one of Wang's students,but Mas Oyama's top foreign Karate-ka.And he didn't think much of Wang,even tho' he'd previously broken his wrist on Wang's rather large abdomen.So there was no teacher awe involved.

    That's what I want to see when people demonstrate extraordinary abilities-I want to see it done to people not students of the practitioner.

    Oh yeah-Geesink vomited.(See R.W. Smith, "Chinese Boxing:Masters and Methods", 1970).
  9. weiliquan

    weiliquan Valued Member

    Yes,William Chen was one of my sifu's instructors. I was a bit surprised a few years ago when i visited William Chen. They have changed.
    They still teach the yang style form but they don't fight like that. It looks more like kickboxing there now. I was surprised.
    This was about 5-6 years ago when i went. I was really into this new found art of taiji from my sifu who had left town for a few months. So i went to William Chen's to check it out. they were boxing,american style.
    Having came from that kind of environment myself i was a little dissapionted.

    So we met, which was cool and i had a good chat with William Chen. He asked me what styles i do, i told him about my sifu and mma training i did.
    I asked him "why the change"? "why boxing"? he said "It's the same"!
    he said that once you have the principals you can make them apply in whatever form to take.He went on to explain that some people out there can kick so fast that if you have your hands down you'll get knocked out!
    "I create fighters"he said.

    I never forgot that.
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2008
  10. East Winds

    East Winds Valued Member


    Yes, you are quite correct. William CC Chen practises Chen Man-ching style and his style is very much influenced by western style boxing. I must admit, I too was a little disappointed. He was very much into demonstrating his "3 Nails" approach to rooting. And yes, he was very much into emphasising the "boxing" influence. Although having said that, his CMC form was quite impressive. I am no great fan of CMC form (not wishing to start a flaming row), but his form was very powerful.

    Very best wishes
  11. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    E.W. could you elaborate on this...describe it?

    Many thanks, Carys.
  12. East Winds

    East Winds Valued Member


    Rather than me trying to describe it (and probably putting my own slant on it!!!)
    here is a link than will probably help explain it better than I could.


    Very best wishes
  13. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

    Thank you EW. I shall print it out to read when I have some quiet time later today.

    Carys :)
  14. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    weili-I'm confused in regard to what you say regarding how they spar at William's school these days.

    Since the mid 60s Wm.'s folks suited up and sparred full contact,mostly punching/kicking and some balance attacks/uproots/etc whatever.

    Are you saying now they are only punching?Or somehow sparring in a different way?Or were they doing the same thing they've been doing for decades and you were just unaware of Wm.'s training methods regarding sparring?

    As a clarification for some readers,when EW said- "William CC Chen practises Chen Man-ching style and his style is very much influenced by western style boxing." - by "his style" he refers to William's,not CMC's.

    Why do I keep seeing folks nowadays spell it Chen,M-c?It's Cheng,w/a "G".
    (Or was this some guy who studied w/Yan,C-f?:))
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2008
  15. weiliquan

    weiliquan Valued Member

    Why are you confused?
    I haven't been in taiji since the 60's. When i went there i thought i was going to see the style that my sifu had because he had trained there for a while.
    I was disappointed because i seen a way from my sifu that it was possible to defeat the kickboxing style,this was good news for me as i could use this information In sparing matches. there's a lot of trading off in kickboxing,damage,medical bills.
    I have no problem with William Chen's school and i think their great,I'm totally sure from what i seen that they can fight.
    I questioned my sifu about that ,he said yes William Chen has been doing that for a long time. It's about body mechanics and applying them in real fighting. So i said well you trained there and i just thought i was going to see the same stuff you have. No, it's only a piece of my style,i have trained with many.

    I didn't leave William Chen's disappointed. They are very realistic in regard to all the advancement in the martial arts. It just thew me off at that time.
  16. East Winds

    East Winds Valued Member

    El Medico,

    Thanks. Your "clarification" was quite correct. My apologies for the Chen/Cheng mistake. Merely my brain moving faster than my fingers!!!!!! Its an "age" thing!!!

    Very best wishes
  17. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    weili-it was the words-"they have CHANGED" and "it looks more like kickboxing there NOW"-[my capitalizations].It was the wording which threw me off.

    Ok,so the same as it ever was.
  18. weiliquan

    weiliquan Valued Member

    Yeah well i must admit i haven't seen the taiji world. I don't know what people are doing out there. I train here mostly at my house. I did train at a chen school for a while but later i invited the chen instructor to my house instead.
    It worked out good,I was able to expose him to jujitsu in private." he liked that a lot" and what happened stayed private .so he taught me the chen style form for free . silk reeling and all that. I like it!
    So i don't really know whats going on out there. I do have a asst.Instructor that drives 4 hours to come to my house and train ,he's from a yang style school in new jersey .I don't really like his style,it feels like sticks.too coarse,too much shoving. somethings missing.
    So about William Chen ,no i never knew they were like that,but all good anyway.
    So basically I have my regular sifu(yang style)who is by far the best, LOL. A chen style Instructor And an asst Instructor(yang) All coming over for truck loads of fun! "they don't really like each other"but i like them all,is funny!
    Not the same since i got hurt that last time though,is really slowed down. was my fault"sort of" I learned of a guy, a jujitson who was banned from ebudo.com. he claimed he had internal power and was laughed at by many. people who didn't understand him were talking all kinds of stuff. eventually in turned into war of words. so he was banned "what a shame"!!!
    I had to find out about this guy,my sifu didn't like it,was worried. I went anyway,he tried many things on me that didn't work because of my sifu's stuff( it was basically earth) that i was using. He did have internal power,he was telling the truth and all those guys on ebudo talking crap were wrong! Apparently this form of jujitsu was from the ren sect which i believe is really Chinese in origin.He learned this art from his 4'11" Japanese sensei. He asked then if i would allow him to demonstrate a move and i let him, Which was a big mistake. i was almost killed. not kidding! To this day i'm still having all kinds of problems.
    enough for now,have a good day!
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2008
  19. neophyte

    neophyte New Member


    Contact moytaichi.org for beginner video of Mr. Moy's style of tai chi.
  20. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    I dont get it.. WHAT? Who's BazC? and where on that site is the vid?

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