Taoist Tai Chi

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by BazC, Feb 23, 2008.

  1. AmericanFighter

    AmericanFighter Valued Member

    Thanks again every one I did some research and this guy Carl Meeks teaches class for 30 a month and privet lessons for about 50 a hour but teaches you enough to work on so you want need to see him for a long time. Carl is a member of the USA Martial Arts Hall of Fame and 2005 Tai Chi Instructor of the Year. Carl teaches the yang 103 posture hand form, 49 posture competition form, 13 posture hand form, the standard 24 posture form, Tai Chi Sword and Saber. Finally carl also teaches classes in Chin Na.

    He seems pretty nice and I think I will go with him thanks again everyone.
  2. old guy

    old guy New Member

    good and for l hope this is what your looking for
  3. weiliquan

    weiliquan Valued Member

    Well i cant throw someone 20-30 feet like that. thats what i'm looking at. He appears to have a great deal of power.
  4. weiliquan

    weiliquan Valued Member

    You sound like a cool dude, a lot of knowledge.
    You said before that you know DR.Yang Jwing-Ming of YMMA.
    Just wondering where your located,I would enjoy meeting up with someone like you. Would be fun,plus this master i train with at my house is just great.
    he likes to play around a lot, i mean really go at it! From the moment he gets here it's on. Total freestyle.
    This is great because a lot of masters will not do that,so it's very hard to see what they have,which makes it even harder to receive it.
  5. East Winds

    East Winds Valued Member


    Look at 0.30 : 0.37 : 1.05 in the video and watch him take an almighty lunge forward and heave his student backwards. No skill. Pure brute force. You don't have to look any further on the video. As for the "group" bounce? I know what I believe.

    Very best wishes
  6. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Why dont you show us how it should be done? :rolleyes:
  7. East Winds

    East Winds Valued Member

    How what should be done?

    Very best wishes
  8. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Eastwinds, you said that Mr. SPH is using 'pure brute force' in the vid. I would like to see how you think such movements should be done. Please present a video with similar effect on the opponent, which you think is not using 'pure brute force'. Just to add my opinion, I think the vid shows good use of sensitivity and structure to unbalance the opponent and gain the opportunity to use force. Also, please explain your idea of 'brute force', what it constitutes, and how you can distinguish it in general and specifically in this vid. Thanks!
  9. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    weili-you misunderstood-I've never met Yang.(Although my top Hung student was his dummy at some very painful chin na seminars).

    I'm in the beautiful Finger Lakes region of upstate NY.

    Don't you notice that all these guys who do "amazing" things such as throw a whole circle of students,or whose students just drop or fly at the slightest touch never ask for experienced MA folks as volunteers?I find it interesting that older vids from the 50s and 60s may show someone being hurled a distance but nothing as ridiculous as some of the silly things being put forth nowadays.

    Example-late 50s,Cheng,Man-ch'ing on Taiwan,thwarting the push of several guys all lined up one behind the other.Not that big a deal,easy to do w/correct basic alignment.I used to do it for laughs-(never in demos,tho').However-he doesn't blow them all off their feet,they just give up after awhile.Reason? It wouldn't happen.He does blow a young Wm. Chen backwards,and while Wm. "probably" runs backwards a ways further than necessary so as to highlight his classmates catching him and throwing him back towards Cheng to be pushed again, the actual issuing and uprooting of Chen is nothing out of the ordinary other than a very good discharge.(Some here will disagree,but other than some added drama I really don't see those pushes as a big put on,or a big deal).

    Exhibitions such as the one we just saw where an entire circle of people are blown away require that salt shaker-and then some.

    There are exceptions-such as the guy in China who, after his students all flew away while circled around him told a TC writer that his students did it themselves-they pushed THEMSELVES off as they felt his force coming,and that was part of what they were doing-practicing "listening". What honesty.
  10. weiliquan

    weiliquan Valued Member

    i KNOW THAT AND I'M A GREAT FAN OF G.M. Haung. who isn't using any mechanical force.
    But in regards to to that video.
    He has great power,very round bouncy energy and i like the fact that he's using that big step forward which is timed perfectly with his opponnent. to me that is great skill.
  11. weiliquan

    weiliquan Valued Member

    correct, i have been told the same.
    the students have learned threw very painful experiences to get out of the way. thats what that part is. i don't train like that,but i still feel this guys got some real power.
  12. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Whatever else one may be using,if one's body moves,one's using mechanics.Without proper mechanics power/force can't be issued well.No less true in TC than Judo or tennis.When a rank beginner bounces off a high level practitioner,mechanics are involved,tho' the practitioner's movement may be imperceptible to onlookers.

    Why didn't Huang use at any of the other TC practitioners at that tourney in 'Frisco for his demo instead of just his own students? There were experienced junior nephews there.

    On a side note,tho' Huang was acknowledged as Cheng's top student,Cheng named Liu his sucessor.Which made the recently deceased Liu GM of CMC system,if you count CMC as distinct from new-(YCF)- Yang system.At least, that's the old way of conferring such things,before everyone started being referred to as a GM by their followers.
  13. weiliquan

    weiliquan Valued Member

    Fair statement.
    However i been talking to people in Malaysia and Thailand about that.
    there is a couple things here about that,though i don't want to sound like a expert because i'm not.
    If a guy runs real fast and "without looking" smashes into a tree,he bounces back. the tree don't move,maybe a little. O.K. now lets say G.M. Haung's rooting (sinking) was so good that he was like a walking tree,"just a thought" thats all.
    the second is compressed energy which i know I'll get flamed for. so after learning my lesson on posting,I'm not saying nothing.
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2008
  14. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Huang was good at push hands, he won tourneys in Taiwan against good name opponents - but I will guarantee you they looked NOTHING like his student demos. Don't buy into the seemingly 'magical' powers he displays training and demoing with his students. As well as the work with the wrestler..

    He's not a tree, he doesn't have roots into the ground. If he is pushed or pulled the right way (into his dead angle) he will be moved like anyone else. Sure he could be very powerful, have great structure, the skills, be soft etc. Have all the right qualities. But then so do other teachers.. And they shouldn't resort to priming students actions and reactions to look effortlessly spectacular. They are taught to come in the way they do for the purposes of such drills and they are vulnerable to be countered the way they are by guys who can. A lot, most if not all his students you see flying back are smaller than him.

    You know i can do that, send a smaller less experienced guy 10-12 feet back, easy, and that's in free moving step - no walking in set ups. ask seanyseanybean..

    No big deal whatsover, just normal practice.

    It's a work built around solid practice (Huangs demos). While I don't deny their skills, a lot of the demo work from him (Huang) and his lines IS misleading to some degree or other. That's not to say they don't develop great applicable skills. Just take some things with pinch of salt. I think it gives people a distorted impression..

    In my humble opinion!
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2008
  15. East Winds

    East Winds Valued Member


    Thanks for the input.

    I think the vid shows good use of sensitivity and structure to unbalance the opponent and gain the opportunity to use force.

    When did "force" become a principle of Taijiquan? I am not disputing SPH's ability or knowledge. Only this nonsense of propelling people 20 or so yards, or bouncing out a group of people surrounding you. (Why do they always only use their own students?). I have never worked with SPH, however I have had the pleasure of pushing with William CC Chen when he visited the UK some years ago. Could he have pushed me back 20 yards without my co-operation? I doubt it. Did he succeed in beating me at push hands? Of course he did - easily and without any co-operation from me. Did he use strength? Perhaps more than I had expected from that level of practitioner. Was he using some mystical power. No.

    Finding someones centre and using it to uproot is the essence of the technique of disruption. It doesn't take strength it doesn't take any great muscular activity and it certainly doesn't propel your opponent 20 yards.

    Very best wishes
  16. weiliquan

    weiliquan Valued Member

    I totally agree with what your saying here.
    There's some things about this that come up. First thing, real push hands could look totally stupid,weak,or nothing important is really happening.Most of the action is hidden. In the joints,yielding or grounded out. So how would a Taiji school sell their stuff when so many other styles look so much more realistic. I know sometimes when I'm training with my sifu it don't look like nothing is happening,it's all hidden. people who don't understand will think it sucks. So i don't really blame them for bringing in people with no root to demo on. For instance,I could put up a nice vid on grappling with a series of pre-planed moves in ground fighting. It would look great and pretty real.
    But the truth is there's a lot of struggle in there. submissions aren't so easy when some one's punching me in the head. All my vid's are private and I'm not trying to sell anything,I'm a steel worker.
    Oh that vid i did put up was not rehearsed.thats how it really went,first time.
    but i did know that it was going to be only a jab or straight punch.
    I'm very open minded to peoples stuff,I don't disbelieve what they have to say right off the bat. But i can tell when someone is total b.s. for the most part.
  17. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    EW,I think you're getting hung up on semantics.Power,force,such terms are interchangeable barring a mutual understanding that one is making a differentiation 'tween such terms.

    weili-sorry, I can't condone presenting unrealistic demos to sell one's goods.If you bought any product that had been falsely represented you'd yell false advertising,and rightfully so.Maybe better demos would be realistic applications rather than silly looking ph.I have no problem w/teachers using their students to demo ph and making them fly a bit,but it shouldn't be so over the top.Unless the teacher can do exactly the same to others who aren't his students.

    Compressed energy.Yeah,slight compression of body tissues and/or joints,followed by expansion of same to bounce somebody off.A physical action if nothing else.Mechanics.
  18. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    I agree with El Med..

    You can't really say issuing force isn't part of tai chi - of course you issue force (as in power). The big fuss is how and where you issue force. The no no as far as the principles of the art go as I see it is not to go directly issued force vs directly issued force.

    And what do you use to uproot when you have found there centre ?

    "force" - not to be confused with 'forcing something' eg. force on force, or trying to put a square peg in a round hole - you know what I mean.

    different uses of the word force..
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2008
  19. weiliquan

    weiliquan Valued Member

    No your too hard on this point.
    I know that i got fa jined all over the place when i first met my sifu.
    That is what really happens to people with no root, so it's not false advertising at all.
    It would be the same if showed a video of a regular guy that i got in an armbar in 4-5 seconds right?
    But then if i tried it on a real good jujitsu player, I might not be able to get one!
    You have to remember that he's trying to attract people with no skill or root to teach his art too,and thats what will happen.
  20. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Yes but he's falsely representing said fighting art...

    Like hey train with me and you can do this to people - but the point is to who exactly and of what use is it when it really comes to fighting.

    those 'abilities look impressive. but at the same tourney that Huang beat that name player at push hands he also lost to another guy at san shou. he was even reprimanded by other tai chi guys that he shouldn't of fought in the san shou/lei tei.

    push hands isn't fighting.

    Bottom line I think p/h skills are great - i love to train them. But they are not really an end to themselves unless you want to be just good in a very specific, specialized context/area.

    so what if you can push someon away who wasn'r even trying to hit you?

    push hands doesn't equal fighting. The demos of root - still pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

    Here is a prime example - just read the comments to, to see the kind of impression some people have / get. Huangs line again. I mean he makes himself look real bad ass - but really for the most part smoke and mirrors. Anyone impressed enough with themselves with that, to put it up is doing so only to show off. Can he do that in a p/h tourney ?

    No. So why give others the impression that they can learn to do this - as if the the next person they have to deal with in self defence may be popped away in manner of a magician waving his wand.

    You seem like you know what a fight is like - so tell me how is any of this representing a martial/ self defence/ combat system in a realistic or good light?

    At best it is a drill that is done 'badly' / 'wrongly'. I mean there is nothing wrong with exercises and drills that test posture. BVut the action/ reaction of the guy coming in is pathetic - he shouldn't be encouraged or taught to do that. What is his posture like when he comes in and makes contact ?

    What is he learning here other than to be the patsy and look ridiculous in the process with that funny shuffling back?

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ELCP6l0iGw"]YouTube - Explosive Power of Taiji - RAW TAI CHI[/ame]

    edit.embedding has been disabled so you have to click link at the top of the box there^
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2008

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