Taoism , Buddhism and MA

Buddhism is based on the premise that " Hell is a place on earth' and life is full of suffering and it is only through many reincarnations that one "escapes" this existence and disappear completely, and that would be achieving Nirvana . Heaven is therefore implicitly escaping from the drudgery of an earthly existence where desires lead to suffering. Life is sacred, Buddhists look to death in anticipation of reincarnating to a better / higher life form. Bad deeds result in bad Karma, and will come back to punish one in the next life.

A Shaolin Buddhist monk will aim to hurt/subdue but take great pains not to kill his attacker unless absolutely necessary

Taoism is based on the premise that human existence on earth functions according to the rules of Nature. Suffering comes from opposing/interfering with Natural law and not maintaining Yin Yang balance. Heaven and Hell are both in one's earthly experience, and there no separation between earthly and spiritual worlds. Life is sacred, but Taoist do not look forward to death, they aim to promote longevity and taken to the limit, Immortality. Death leads to disappearance form existence. There is no afterlife, or reincarnation.


Transformative energy refinement techniques, increasing Chi and accumulating good deeds (virtue) are necessary to achieve the return to Pre-Natal energy conditions before ascending to a higher level of existence is possible. No Karma, nor reincarnation.

A Wudang Taoist monk will not take as much caution to avoid killing his attacker, as he believes it is his duty to protect the weak, and eliminating the attacker might be necessary for the greater good.

 

I'm not sure if I agree with your use of western terminology to describe Buddhist thought. "Heaven and Hell" don't really fit into a Buddhist lexicon, and suffering is more complicated than life just being bad.

That said, I think it is an interesting clarification, and I do agree with the differences in fighting style.

 

I'd advise you to be careful classifying those schools-Budhist, Taoist- cause some schools consider others to have stolen their name and to be teaching some wrong style.

I think the main aim of the Budha is to eliminate all karma and trancend into a higher level/state of enlightened life.

I have no idea about Taoism.

/Xio

 

Neither do the Taoists

 

I admire the Taoist philosophy, I have real trouble in accepting any of the "supreme beings" or even just the deified mortals in contemporary religous practices around the world.

I do though see alot of sense in respecting/contemplating the universe for the vast enigma it appears to be though and also see value in not fighting against the natural flow of things around me (when its seemingly unwarranted).

I can see alot of good stuff in Buddhism too and suspect it was a good philosophy at first gradually turned into a religous practice over the centuries...

So, In short, religon? NO THANKS, philosophy? YES PLEASE.

PS. I also believe that if prohepts like Abraham, Jesus and Mohammed (PBUH) did exist and were brought to 21st century Earth to see the organsied religons and thier respective practices/principles that have sprung up based on thier teachings they'd be like:

"err...thats not exactly what we meant, did you actually listen to anything we said?"

 

Buddhism also believes in faith: They do not do any sort of trade/service to earn money for their daily needs, people who have faith with this religion will give them food/money without any request. They don't care if they hungary to death since death isn't such a bad thing, it is just an end of this life. Surely they need to clean their temple and daily stuff, but they don't have to work for money during the day, so some monks study the Buddhism philosophy; some practice the Martial Art and become very good at it.

 

The belief that all Buddhist monks do is practice martial arts and read philosphy is a complete delusion... Go to Japan and visit a Buddhist temple and see how much martial arts you see, or go to Tibet, or go to Vietnam, in fact pick any primarily Buddhist country and go have a look or do some research at what Buddhist monks actually do you might be suprised. (I wonder how long it will be before someone mentions the Shaolin temple...)

Most Buddhists would be familiar with the concept of hell and heaven realms. In fact quite a lot of your ordinary lay Buddhist activity (at least in Buddhist countries) is done for the goal of attaining a better rebirth... kind of like in Christian terms getting into heaven.

 

I would maintain that enlightenment or nirvana is not synonomous with a western concept of heaven, and that any concept of a hell would be limited to life right here on earth.

Heaven and hell are terms that are rife with western morality, and while we can roughly approximate terms between the two, it presents unfamiliar readers with instant imagery that I don't think is representative.

 

As far as I know, a better rebirth in Buddhism would be considered being born into the pure realm of higher spiritual beings (?, not quite sure about the words), like Amithaba or Tara.

Speaking philosophically (or metaphorical) now, that is probably more like an ffirst-aid job or assistent job in a health resort, than like an unending relax and joy -- so I'm wondering why they call it a pure-realm?


Jimmy

 

The philosophical justification that is usually given for why Buddhists are trying to get into these 'higher' or 'purer' realms is that in such places it is very easy to reach enlightenment. The Pure Land schools of Buddhism in particular have lots of literature about realms where your constantly showered by the pure dharma of Amitabha (or other super Buddhas such as Shakyamuni) and in such circumstances its seen to be next to impossible to not attain liberation.

Conversely however, other schools such as Zen tend to see rebirth as a God or in higher realms to be less productive as they regard a human rebirth as the best chance you can have for getting enlightened. Hence why most Zen schools will teach that you can get enlightened in this lifetime rather than having to wait for a better rebirth. (Though its worth mentioning that being reborn as a God and being reborn in a Pure Land are two different things...)

 

Good point and I agree.

While on this subject, allow me to digress a little.

Taoism predates Buddhism by 1000-2000 years. ( Buddha born circa 550 BC)
Tao Te Ching, Taoism's main "reference book" was written by LaoTse circa 570BC.
( The I Ching and Yellow Emperor's Internal medicine Treatise, the other 2 important Taoist text, were written much earlier)
Buddhism did not arrive in China till monk Boddhidharma brought it to Shaolin circa 670AD.......nealy 1100 years afer Buddha was born..

If anyone "borrowed" or "stole " any ideas , it would be that Shaolin Buddhists took from Wudang Taoists.
There's a common myth repeated in many Martial books published in the West that stipulates Buddhist monk Boddhidharma brought Martial Arts from India to China.
This is utter rubbish, and has been contradicted by many traditonal Martial Artists/ Historians in China.
Consider this:


1.The myth implies Martial Artsdid not exist in China before Boddhidharma arrived in Shaolin in 670AD

2. This is disproved by historical texts, drawings, achaelogical finds of weapons etc
indicating conclusively that Martial Arts ( 100 % Taoist) was practised in China long before the coming of Buddhism.

3. If Boddhidharma bought Kung Fu to China, why is there no known/ establised Martial Art tradition in India today ? Besides Kalari Piyatu in South India?

4. The only things Boddhidharma introduced to China / Shaolin temple is Zen ( Chan) Buddhism and possibly some meditative practices/ exercises that was incorporated into the existing Martial Art practices of the day.



It's amazing how much rubbish is written by western authors about the origins of Chinese Martial Arts.
They read and borrow from each others booksand propagate the myth.

One should try and read some books written by Chinese authors or Western authors who bothered to check for historical accuracy.

 

Hmm, the word "Kung Fu" is a Chinese word, it generally just means martial in China, where wusu means martial art. Also, kung fu meant hard work, so it would make sense if India have a different name for this kind of "self-defense" excrise. BTW, Tai Chi came from Shaolin too if you don't know yet.

 

Tai Chi is not a Shaolin Art

Yes, thanks.
Here's some more info. Tai Chi's origins is attributed to Chang Zhang Feng ( spelling ?) circa 1300AD.
Chang Zhang Feng was originally a Buddhist monk from Shaolin, he travelled to Wudang mountain and RELINQUISHED his Buddhist Shaolin ways.
At Wudang he CONVERTED and learnt Taoist methods and Philosophy, he realised how inefficient and unnecessarily difficult Shaolin ways were to achieve the same objective.
So drawing from the "errors of his past ie. Shaoilin " he developed Tai Chi , an Internal Art that contrary to the External Arts of Shaolin both in Philosophy and Bio-Mechanics.

The point is he abandoned his Shaolin / Buddhist ways for Wudang and Taoism.
He did benefit from Shaolin only in realising " how not to do it"

In Taoist circles, Chang Zhang Feng holds an exalted position , not just for Tai Chi, as one of few who achieved the Tao and thence Imortality.
But that's another subject.

 

What are your sources for that information soggycat?

 

I never heard Sang Feng was originally Shaolin ...?

 

CKava and Nzric

That Tai Chi founder ( Chang-San Feng ) renounces his Shaolin origins and migrated to Taoist Wudang is all over the internet and in many books.
Can find it in Google.

Here's a sample:
http://www.taichiworldwide.com/what2.htm

"
...The art of Tai Chi Chuan evolved from Taoist
monks in ancient China…….

As the philosophers studied the Taoist ways they became
conscious of the limitations of their masters’ teachings and
this initiated a reaction that was influenced by the need to
attain balance with the natural way of all things. These monks
who were tied to the Shaolin way and were not free to venture
elsewhere……

….The founder of Tai Chi Chuan was one of the monks who made
it past the line of no return and out through the gates of the
Shaolin temple. His name was Chang-San Feng. His fighting
skills were so advanced that the Emperor offered him the
post of head martial arts teacher of the Ming dynasty. He was
showered with gifts by the Emperor, who also built a temple on
the Wutang Mountains to honour him……


…….Chang-San Feng therefore developed the Shaolin fighting art in
line with the principles of Taoism until it took on a new form with
emphasis based on a fuller understanding of the yielding force
of the Yin.

 

More on the origins of Tai Chi

One account of the history credits its development of the Taoist immortal Chang San-Feng, who is said to have drawn the inspiration for the art by watching a fight between an elusive snake and an aggressive eagle. Chang San-Feng was a master of Shaolin Kung Fu who reached an extraordinary level of cultivation through Taoist internal practices


excerpt from :
http://www.lvlohans.com/taichi.php

 

Id be wary about basing my information on websites that don't even provide sources for their statements. Going by the second one he is also an immortal so I guess we should just go find him and ask him if he studied at Shaolin.

 

CKava

OK, you might not be aware of this, the bit about Chang San-Feng abandoning Shaolin for Wudang to develop Tai Chi is a well known fact amongst all Wudang martial artist in China, and also among well informed Wudang / IMA practioners in the West.

It doesn't really matter what the websites say, although you can find many websites, books and mags that state just that.

Also the bit about Taoist Immortality might new to you but is a well accepted item amongst Taoists. After all the main focus of Taoism ( past and present) is to seek Immortality.


There are also the other 8 Immortals , Lu Dong Bin and Zhong Li Chuan being the most prominent. Whether this is fact or myth is another matter, I'm just stating what Taoist believe. I guess it's no more/ less absurd than the Western equivalent of Jesus rising from the dead.


It is too easy to assume that just because one hasn't heard of it, hasn't read it in some website or read it in some mag /book that it couldn't be true.
I'd be very wary of the Internet mentality , ( If it isn't on the Net, it couldn't be true)

Much of Chinese history ( myth and fact) is still in Chinese writing if not transmitted orally.
Infact I'd be surprised if even 30% of it was translated ( properly) into English

 

taoist immortality

Immortality in taoism comes from achieving emptiness and unity with the tao. I don't think that modern day taoists claim to attain immortality in an incarnate sense-- rather, you become one with everything, and hence, death has no meaning.

There are legends of old in every great tradition, from Jesus rising to the bodhisttvas whose mission is enlightening others. The taoist immortals are a wonderful metaphor, but the goal of taoism is not physical immortality, but rather, spiritual immortality. :Angel: