Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by Kframe, Dec 16, 2014.
Weaving would work a treat though. Evasion is often a better course of action than blocking.
Out of interest how did your school do against those MMA clubs that only worked this basic simple boxing that only scratches the surface of striking ? what was your clubs competition record like?
It might not be what you said but its implied in your statement
It sounds like your school didn’t cover much boxing at all, basic covers and slaps are only a part of boxing, rolling with shots is another, countering whilst bobbing and weaving would be another, as would using your footwork to stay just outside of his striking range whilst lighting him up like a xmas tree (the part I always find so hard to deal with when getting tooled by a simple boxer)
If someone is swinging a weapon at me im not looking to block it at all, id be looking to hit them with something bigger or sharper than what they carried, unarmed doesn’t tend to do well against armed in general
Covers might only work unarmed (then again they might worked against an impact weapon) but that is only part of boxing, and its not been proved that your more in-depth striking and deflections and interceptions work at all
Ok, I'll bite.....
What ARE you going to use then and how have you arrived at this conclusion?
Not "what has your instructor told you" or "what does your styles founder say", what have YOU done to test this
How long did you study at your last school? It was only months right? From the Ninjitsu place to that and it closed down? Along with several others that closed down after a short time?
How many years total study in any one style do you have?
I ask because unless one has studied for many years in an art, one hasn't leaned all it has to offer. When you get a solid foundation in one art, then start worrying about adding other stuff. When that art has nothing more to teach you, because you already have learned it all, THEN worry about it not having enough for you.
From what I recall of your posts, you haven't had enough study time to say this about any art. Correct me if I am wrong.
This is what I was talking about with saying there were excuses not to study going on. You can get a lot out of boxing, then worry about it not having enough for you. It has the full contact that is at the top of your list.
Kframe I sort of can understand where you are coming from. I did MA when I was younger, but stopped for many years. Maybe 10 yrs ago I was sort of interested in picking it up again - I would read about it, think about it, etc. But no option really seemed good to me. At that time I was against any sort of TMA, and felt I was too old to do any sort of sport art like Muay Thai or BJJ. I basically talked myself out of any option for one reason or another. I had even reached out to some schools, but never did anything with it. I even had an appointment to show up at a CMA school, drove there - saw what they were doing through the window, and decided it wasn't for me, and didn't even go in. So I spent a lot of time being interested, going in circles, doing nothing.
I had a pal take me along to some MA he was interested in, and it started me back actually doing MA about 5 yrs ago. I have been at it steady for 3 years - almost a year and a half at Muay Thai - which I have discovered I am not too old to do, if I go in with the right expectations. I think if I could re-write my own history - I would love to have spent all the years I was doing nothing MA related in that CMA school where I didn't even go in the door. Later on when I was back into MA, I met them, and while I didn't end up being a student - realized what they were doing had some value.
No MA school or situation I have ever been in was exactly the way I wanted or perfect for me. I've been in classes where I am mentally dismissing 90% of what is happening as nonsense and useless. But the way I look at it now is that 10% useful is better than 0% useful, which is what I got just sitting around not doing any MA at all. Of course I have come to realize that I am not always right about what is useless, and a lot of classes I feel are getting closer to 100% useful stuff - if for conditioning purposes if nothing else. I'm in a pretty big metro area, and have lots of schools to pick from, and even with that, I still see some (maybe only minor) faults with everything I see. At some point I think you just have to accept doing some things you don't like or 100% see the value in to get a fair amount of the things you do like.
If by some crazy voodoo I was able to get 5 or 6 years of Tang Soo Do in my past where I was sitting around playing Magic the Gathering or something instead, I'd be thrilled. Since I don't have that sort of time travel capability, I just have to do what I can going forward. In the past year I tried to cram a lot of different MA stuff in, kind of in an attempt to make up for the time I was doing nothing, and it was only partly successful. Really the only thing I can do is try to stick with it, and do something no matter what going forward.
Anyways, Kframe - not sure if that helps or you can relate, but I wish you well with this. My advise is to pick something, do it for a while, even if it is only for while you are looking for something better. Might be 3 or 4 years go by while you are still looking - and something that was only 50% of what you really wanted for those 3-4 years will still be a lot better than nothing.
Well said sunfish. I feel the same as you. All that wasted time.
Ok i am being pig headed and stubborn about this. I will give it some thought and maybe try it out for a while and see if my mind changes. There is no contracts so as was mentioned ill be out nothing.
I still need to work on my preconceived notions that i fight stupidly for. I have no idea why im so stubborn.
I guess that a small part of my issue with point sparring is i dont know of anyone that has used it successfully for SD and/or gone directly from it to full contact and done well.
I will admit that i fear that ill get stomped in a real fight if i only point spar. However i do not have much experience with it so maybe my view is wrong.
I have to admit this long search for the holy grail has kept me from doing any training at all and that is the biggest waste of all...
Well what i was taught involved evasion and variations on a 2 on 1 grip to control the weapon. We also did some simple parry and strike drills. However we did not spend as much time as i would like on weapons but i got enough to retain it.
We did something similar in the Ninjutsu class once but they dont really mess with weapons in depth at that school till black belt.
Aaridia the BBT place did not close i left because of the no sparring. I did not want to be that one guy in class that was constantly asking if such and such technique would work against x or y.
With regards to years of study i have about 2 years total. I have 6 months of boxing,5 months mma, 6 months at my mma/karate hybrid then the rest of the time spent in ninjutsu and other places i have tried..
Gah, whenever people ask me how long I've trained I just say 3 years (the amount of time I've been at my current club) even though I've been place to place since I was 16. The difference is that I learnt more in my first 6 months at Ricks than my previous 5 years at various crap places.
Thank you Sunfish! Your experiences illustrates exactly what I was trying to say and exactly the situation I was trying to warn kframe from getting into!
K frame just because you don't know any point sparrers who can switch to full contact doesn't mean they are unicorns. my gym has a mma fighter who does point sparring on a regular basis. He claims it keeps him quick. I do point, light and full contact. Of course I do cross train in karate, and boxing. This summer I hope to also do catch wrestling.
I cannot find the best style for me so I am forced to train multiple arts. Perhaps this is something you may end up doing as well
Hey Kframe, if you want you could watch Raymond "The Real Deal" Daniels. Started out as a point fighter, now a professional kickboxer. Personally I've grown up point sparring and when you get really good at it, its really scary. Trains the reaction times and reading for the small cues, especially in the higher levels. We used to train lower belts with point fighting because it would be easier for them to grasp the concept of getting hit, and having to get hit. I've been rocked point fighting and this is coming from a Kajukenbo practitioner. Keeled over, could barely breathe, cause I slightly telegraphed my advance in and ran straight into a side kick. On the reverse notion, I've fractured a guy's ribs, it was a point sparring match too. Fact of the matter, the amount of contact and "realism" depends on the style, judges, and fighters. Point fighting isn't the greatest for the reasons like you've mentioned, such as the non-realism, but it teaches other things like speed.
Before, when we started having more children, we would have them point spar until they reached their black belt test. Then we threw them into a black belt testing, where it was full contact, continuous sparring. Many of them could click in their head and abuse the speed they gained from training point sparring. If they couldn't click, it didn't end very well for them. My friends and I have used the foot work and speed we gained from point fighting in our own self defense, just to be able to position ourselves in a more prime position. Point fighting may not be the best, but its very hard to call it useless.
From a National Black Belt League Judge, I've been to a couple judging seminars where we discuss what our criteria for what constitutes a point to be. Many judges now in the NBL agree that a strike must be strong enough to make contact and possibility of damage. There were a couple European point fighters recently that, at a recent tournament, had trouble grasping that concept. Over there in some of the leagues they fought in, they were fine with just taps. But here it must have the possibility to do damage. Also there is concept of ... let me illustrate it rather than just explain it. When a karate practitioner is on the ground and the other fighter stands near them in a stance and throws a punch at the head of the downed fighter to "finish" him. It isn't necessarily a damaging punch, nor did it make contact, but if the fighter wanted to, he could make contact and do heavy damage on their opponent, we award a point for that. Judges are just trying to keep the competitors safe. I know more than a fair number of judges who would not award points for the video you linked because of the tap. We gotta hear thumps, especially since it seemed that "black belts" were sparring. That was an atrocious example of point sparring, and exactly the reason why it is looked down upon. If the practitioners suck at what they do, its going to look bad, doesn't matter if its point fighting, MMA, continuous sparring, what have you.
Cheers, hope Tang Soo Do works out well for you, its the "Ka" portion Kajukenbo, it works well when you go far into it.
Goldshifter thank you for the insightful post. I will take what you said into consideration as well as the others here. I do appologize again for being stubborn guys.
Hannibal does my description of how i was trained meet with your approval? It felt practical to me but i dont get attacked by knives on a regular basis.
Its just the way he described sparring was off putting. He kept putting emphasis on control and wanting us to be able to stop a punch a hair from the target.
I talked to a friend today. He has been doing Kobayashi shorin ryu for over 20 Years. He lives a few hours away so training with him is out. He said from the sounds of things this is a good place with a good instructor, he does however agree with my view of the sparring. He suggested i train there, and find some place to get my sparring in else were. Which is exactly what alot of you have been saying.
Guys its my fear your dealing with... I have been in two real situations in my life and i failed them both. Got completely dominated and it has been a scarring thing for me for many years.
I will reconsider my stance and i may just give it a go. Im not getting any younger.
Edit i thanked the wrong person.
Separate names with a comma.