Tang Soo Do?

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by Kframe, Dec 16, 2014.

  1. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Hey guys, as you may know im on a quest to find my place in the martial world. I have traveled and tried many arts over the last 2 years. Some schools were not a good fit others were good but closed soon after joining....:confused:

    I had considered and was planing on joining a JKD/Kali school however the cost of the drive was way to high. It would have cost me more then the cost of the schools tuition in gas to train there. So it, for now is off the list.

    So on a whim i tried out a C.S.Kim Tang Soo Do karate school. http://www.cskimkaratefortwayne.com/

    I know very little about this style, other then its got roots in shotokan and some northern Chinese styles.

    The teacher seams to be good and is VERY traditional. A nice guy and good teacher but very strict with his students. Not tolerating screwing off.
    He also is on the I.T.F technical advisory committee for the national organization.

    I asked him for some specifics on what is different between what he teach's and the KKW TKD. He said they do not do whippy sporty kicks, that they go for full powerful kicks with the hips. He also stated they use alot more hands then TKD.

    I attended a private class and it was similar to the karate i had done previously. He is a good teacher, very strict on good form and proper basics.

    Now regarding sparring im not sure how to take it. They didnt spar so i did not get to watch be we did talk about it after class. He only lets you spar when he feels you are technically good enough and have enough control to do it safely. So it basically depends on the students.

    Basic sparring for the color belts is point sparring. However he stated that they do advanced sparring in there advanced class's with more open targets(low kicks and face punching and take downs). He was very honest as to why he has restrictive sparring, saying that he has to do it this way protect himself from getting sue'd. That this is different from how he trained with Master C.S.Kim but was done out of necessity to prevent lawsuits.

    Its this sparring that is the only niggle i have with this school. I dont know much about point sparring but i heard its not useful. Im glad they have more open sparring but like stated its at later belt levels and only if he thinks your safe enough to do it.

    So what do you think guys?
  2. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    I've known some point sparrers who could take my head off, but those guys seemed to stress its drawbacks as well. Regardless, they seemed to have a great striking game.

    I'm always skeptical of the claim "you'll spar when you're technically proficient," as it seems to me that competence is reached through sparring. Generally I think it's enough to just make sure folks have a good attitude and aren't looking to kill each other.
  3. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    On point sparring. It's a split camp. I myself both like and hate it. It has made me faster and improved my foot work but i hate how the stop and go action screws with my flow. In the end I believe it has helped me more than hinder me. When I spar with the mma fighers I always hold my own.

    I am more concerned with the wording he used "technical y proficient" like raptor said you cannot get proficient at sparring without sparring. When I started at a new school I was asked to demonstrate my control by sparring with the higher belts before I went at it with those in my own rankings.

    My cousin teaches tang soo do, and I have taken classes with him. If your instructor is as good as my cousin you will learn some very practical skills and get a heck of killer work.out. good luck to you.
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2014
  4. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Kframe, do you even have any other choices right now? I mean, just go to this school for now. A good foundation in strict technical basics is a good thing. But keep an eye out for other schools while you go in case the sparring thing does not suit you.

    Besides, with your luck, you should always be keeping an eye out for another school anyways.:p

    My school used to have people start point sparring after reaching a sash level, then do regular sparring after another sash level of point sparring. Then, they cut out the point sparring, then later they just started people sparring right away. But they keep a close eye on beginners and it is a very controlled environment for sparring.

    I can see the logic of having someone learn a few basics before sparring, but I also agree with philosoraptor that one cannot really become fully proficient without doing the sparring.

    But as you have been months without a school, just go for now. At least it is something. And his sparring may be fine. You will only find out by going.
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2014
  5. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    I dont know aaridia i just dont like point sparring. I know his ORG says he is good, as they made him part of the technical advisory board but i find his training paradoxal.

    On one side he says they train for self defense and not for sport yet they spar with sport karate rules.

    I know what i want and as a art it does not exist.
  6. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Once he gets to know you he may allow you to do the heavier contact stuff relatively soon. He's just getting to know people before letting them loose, which makes some sense.

    Why not try it out for a while and see how you go? A couple of months training and you'll know. You may love it, if not you won't have lost much but you'll have gained some training and at least know it's not for you. :)

  7. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    I dont think i can. I do not see any value in point sparring. [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuAA3ipHwpk"]Tang Soo Do Sparring Round 1 - YouTube[/ame]

    That is TSD point sparring and it is worthless imho. They are not making contact just barely touching, and the distancing is unrealistic for a real fight. I could never in good conscious spar like that.

    I gave it a go and while i think that technically he is a good teacher, well regarded in his ORG i can not understand why they would take a good system and ruin it with point sparring. Which is not his fault but ORG wide.

    They say they teach for self defense for real fighting but then they spar like that with no contact stupid rules and it has no bearing on real fighting, not even close to being realistic.

    What is up with these Korean arts. They take such good systems and ruin them with worthless sparring types.

    Yes i am writing this a bit angry, but its my honest feelings. I have tried every TMA in town. Which leaves me with a competitive bjj/mma place and pure BJJ place. I really dont want to go back to mma as i do not find the striking to be fullfilling, to shallow. However if that is what it takes to get closer to my goals then so be it.

    God how I miss my days in the Karate/mma hybrid. All the techniques and theories and applications of karate with none of the nonsense. No chambering, no forms just the good stuff with bjj and catch wrestling and military combatives thrown in for good measure. That was the perfect art and i regret it closed and he moved away.
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2014
  8. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    Well k frame it. Seems you have already made up your mind. If point sparring is so bad in your opinion find somewhere else to train.

    Let me ask you this. Have you ever done point sparring? Or do you base your opinion on a few videos, and what others say. I was set against it untill I did my first point tourney.

    Point sparring is defiantly flawed, but I finally had to admit it can defiantly be useful.
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2014
  9. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Nothing formal but i have seen it. The complete lack of any realism and not to mention the NO CONTACT. I see no value in it.

    I am actually saddened and angry at this honestly. They ticked alot of good box's on my list. Focus on quality technique, stable dojo not likely to close down unlike my last 3. However sparring is one of the most important aspects of training and i just cant bring my self to spar under what I feel is foolish rules that will not develop martial artists capable of dealing with real fighting. Sparring needs to be as open and limitless as possible to foster quality martial artists.

    Sparring is the biggest factor in how i judge a school. They must show good movement, instructor must know his stuff and be knowledgeable and be fit and the sparring must be as realistic and open.

    Ill openly admit my problem is that i did not start my martial path in TMA, but in mma. Once i experianced that kind of open free sparring, doing anything else just seams pointless. Now i know you will say just go do mma. Well thats the rub. I dont really get turned on by the striking arts in mma, i do however love the sparring. Thus my search for something..
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2014
  10. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    Ther is contact in point sparring. It is not full contact but I did get a broken nose from point sparring. I suppose it depends on the school. You do have to make contact in order to get a point.

    This is not a challenge or any thing but I have a brother in Avilla. Next time I visit him we should get togther and do a bit of sparring.

    We could do both point and even full contact if you wish. Or even just go over techniques and have a beer or 2. ;)
  11. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter


    ..............why did you ask if your mind was already made up?

    Maybe you have to accept that no school is perfect, and you will need to find a school that checks off most of your criteria. It isn't ideal. But not training under any instructor isn't ideal either.

    You can either find a way to train, or excuses not to train...........think about it.
  12. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    They specifically said no contact. He implied that no contact point was the norm.
    Also watching that video the contact was nothing more then a tap. I have been on google for the last few hours and a bunch of TSD manuals and articles all talk about the fact that the sparring is no contact point sparring...

    That would be fun, i love a good go around. It always makes me feel better.
  13. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    I asked for help because i wanted someone to talk me into accepting point sparring. However i realize that is not likely to happen and i have wasted every ones time. I do appreciate the help and discussion. Thank you for trying.

    I understand what your saying, but honestly there is no reason for any art to use this sparring format with no contact.

    You say to train someplace that ticks the most box's and accept none are perfect. Thats all well and good, however that falls apart when one of the most important and fundamental parts of it is dead weight.

    That school does tick off alot of box's just not what i consider to be the most important one.

    If the sparring does not match the rest of the training in quality the rest of it will be wasted.

    The saying of just train is flawed. It must be good, and the sparring must be of the same quality as the rest of the training. Anything less is folly..

    Honestly id be happy with continuous medium contact.. That is what i want. I know someday ill find what i am looking for. It has to be out there.
  14. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    Perhaps you should join a boxing or mma gym. Here's one I found really quick via Google

  15. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Been there, they are way out of my way. Nice guys though. i dont think they have put out any fighters.

    Also, i am not fully satisfied with mma striking arts. I find them to simple i want more then just boxing covers and movement with slap parries. I want something more indepth with regards to the striking.
  16. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Pay closer attention to what I wrote please. I said accept that you may not find the perfect school. When I wrote that part of my message, I didn't say you HAD to go to that one school in particular. I said you don't have to have all the boxes ticked off to train somewhere. I didn't tell you which boxes. If sparring full contact is that important, then go somewhere that has that and accept that some other boxes won't be ticked off. Maybe you will have to learn a form. Maybe the location isn't the best, maybe you will have to focus on the basics of boxing, then add other stuff to that foundation later, maybe whatever...........

    But stop being angry and go find somewhere to train. You can train in a less than ideal situation AND continue to search for the perfect school. It isn't an either/ or situation. Just don't sign a long term contract. See? Easy! But you have been without a school for awhile now. Less than absolutely perfect training is better than no training. And getting angry about it? Well, that won't make you a better MAist.

    You ask for advice, then it turns out your mind was already made up against one school. Someone suggests another, you say it is too far away and not enough for you. what next? I am sorry, but it is just sounding like excuses. But I am calling this out in the hopes that it prods you in a more positive direction.

    I still feel the same way about your situation. No offense, I mean this in a constructive manner. but I still say that you can either find excuses not to train or find reasons to train. Time is ticking, go train!
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2014
  17. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    you mean you want something that doesnt work?
  18. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Thats not what i said. I have no problem with boxing and its defenses. What i tried to imply is that i wanted more on top of it. I had such a system when i was at my mma/karate hybrid place. The base of our defense was boxing, then they added the deflections and interceptions from his karate style on top of them and then drilled them in a boxing/mma fashion.. That is the kind of striking i want. Something with good basics and more options beyond covering.

    Your not going to use a boxing block on someone swinging a weapon at you. Covers only work in unarmed.
  19. pecks

    pecks Valued Member

    I'm not gonna use any kind of block on someone swinging a weapon at me, I'm going to run like, um, Usain Bolt
  20. ned

    ned Valued Member

    I bet if you found yourself in a dedicated boxing gym you'd find that what you think you know about boxing does'nt amount to anything very much up against the average
    pug .:p

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