Taijiquan Full Contact Competition

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Sandy, Jul 15, 2006.

  1. Sandy

    Sandy Valued Member

    Last edited: Jul 15, 2006
  2. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Technically this should be in the Tai Chi forum then more folks will look at it :) (Personally I think it should be on the Kickboxing forum as that's what it is imo)
    Not hugely impressed tbh :(
  3. Skrom

    Skrom Banned Banned

    funny how similar most styles are when they're actually put to use. fighting is not pretty, and it never was.
  4. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    I don't see anyone putting Taiji 'to use' and I don't see anyone 'using a style' there at all tbh. Just generic boxing, which is not Taijiquan. I also would never call that 'fighting' either. It's just a type of sparring for training one aspect. It bears little to no relation to a genuine fight imo/e.
    Your observation is correct regarding most MA when practised by people who have not studied the arts for long enough before 'testing' them in the scenario illustrated. Real MA - as opposed to sport MA (which I have nothing against :) ) - is about stopping fights as quickly as possible, not trading distance punches and kicks in front of an audience with a referee. All the really good stuff is not allowed in these bouts so they become irrelevant to any kind of 'reality' other than the 'sport moment' they exist in.
    Putting gloves and headguards on sets up 'boxing' as the agenda which is why all these contests end up looking fundamentally the same. I quite like boxing as an art in itself, but it isn't Taiji I'm watching there.
    Genuine Taijiquan makes extensive use of fingers and the opening and closing of the laogong points in the palms - none of which is possible in boxing gloves. What you are seeing is generic sparring for stamina and toughness training. Not my cup of tea ta :D
  5. moononthewater

    moononthewater Valued Member

    Have to agree with TB I see no open hand strikes, no low kicks, no takedowns, no ting jing or following and no Tai Chi. Nothing wrong with it as a bout but I saw no Tai Chi in it.
  6. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Ok, my general try not to reply to tjb's posts or to quote him, but anyway.

    This is a conversation that we have had at least three times. The generic answer that has yet to be countered id "by all means, put up a clip of someone using Tai Chi....but not a demonstration please".....has yet to happen despite one of tjb's students adamantly insisting that he uses tai chi in a clearly visible way when sparring.

    Yes, ok, gloves and rules change things, but, until proof to the contrary is provided I will continue to insist that this is what tai chi looks like. Anyone who thinks it should look like an idealised demonstration has not been training with enough reality.

    Its a fight. Each fight has two people who are not co-operating and are trying to hurt each other. There are rules, just like in real fights. The rules, with this being a competition are different to the rules of a real fight. If anything the rules of the competition make it a harder fight than a real fight because you cant pick a much smaller drunken opponent or use a 2 by 4.

    LOL at sport MA not being real MA. The 1980's just PM'd and they want their out dated ideas back.

    Fundamentally, sport MA can be poor, but not as poor as a Aikido kid really thinking that when the mugger attacks (with a really slow over arm stab) he will be ready with a great counter.

    Traditional MA, almost exclusively in my experience, (and I have got many trad guy to put gloves on over the years) are really unprepared by their one step sparring and kata.

    LOL, what great "alive" manner of training eye gouges and biting! Would it be throwing finger jabs into the air and one step sparring by chance.
  7. Tommy-2guns...

    Tommy-2guns... southpaw glassjaw

    that is tai chi chuan, in combat, in esence, at the end of the day, its two individuals fightiong, now they may not be preresting or rather illistrating their style as you would expect, but this is no kata,when karate exponents fight it looks like kickboxing, when kung fu expnonents fight it ends up like kickboxing, all martial arts are just kicking and boxing (generlaised for hand strikes*, just the philosophys change, they are using tai chi principals, aswell as punching and kicking just like evrything else.

    of course there are varying degress of this, just because there is no evident chi power or flowing gracefull movemnets does not make it any less of tai chi.
  8. moononthewater

    moononthewater Valued Member

    You can dress it up anyway you like but what that clip is a competition any martial art with gloves and pads becomes a sport. They do end up looking the same but any martial art such as Karate or Tai Chi becomes watered down as soon as pads are put on and its no longer a fight. Be it Tai Chi or Karate the art in a fight involves take downs low kicks , knees open handed strikes , grabs and anything goes. Im not saying competition is wrong as its a good way to learn but that is no longer Tai Chi. A fight is a fight and very different to competition.
  9. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    First, the nitpicking part: Low kicks, clinching, throws and other kinds of takedowns were all allowed in that competition. It just so happens you didn't see any in those particular clips. Read up the San Shou competition rules for that event.

    To address the point that pads change things.. well they do. But the fact that they change things isn't a good reason not to use them, and it certainly isn't a reason not to spar hard. I'd be really interested to see the full contact barenuckle sparring clips of the people who think something is no longer Tai Chi when gloves are involved.
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2006
  10. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

  11. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    It should also be noted that whilst the event was hosted by a TCC teacher, other styles were free to enter and not everybody there was a TCC practitioner.
  12. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    I disagree with this on so many levels.

    Sports guy, trained to hit moving objects, trained against resistance, used to taking a shot and used to the emotional pressure of fighting ,infront of a crowd, against a fit, strong stranger who is trying to hurt him.

    Trad guy, Lots of kata, lots of punching the air, lots of co-operation, light contact sparring at best and a great reliance on one step sparring.

    Who is the better prepared? The real answer is that both are unprepared, but one is definatly ahead.

    If you guys who don't compete feel that this is unfair, by all means, tell us how your class really preps you for the str33t.
  13. JSun

    JSun Valued Member

    I have a few friends who practice Taichi Chuan and when they free spar, they don't use gloves, the chin-na is apparent and they extensively use palm strikes and low kicks while trying to maintain listening contact. It's *way* different than the video posted here.
  14. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Most years its manly made up of kick boxers, this year of the 18 fighters, only 2 were not with a tai chi club.
  15. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    Sure, but how hard is the contact ? What's it like when they are up against people who aren't Tai Chi practitioners ? Got video ?
  16. moononthewater

    moononthewater Valued Member

    Nice fight but you can see that at a karate competition or kickboxing. Cullion Im not sure of your point about Tai Chi and bare knuckles but I would think it would be quite different to the first clip. Liokault you can disagree on as many levels as you like thats up to you but I also tend to train with a good few karate friends and sparring is rarely light. Also is it rarely one step. Its also not all against thin air.
  17. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    I'm always doubtful of the intensity and degree of contact people are engaging in when they claim to only spar without protective gear of any sort.

    I'd love to see video of it because I'm skeptical that people sparring hard or full contact in a competitive way would be able to make what they were doing resemble 'classical' Tai Chi techniques and postures for anything but a brief moment amongst the rough'n'tumble. Were such video to surface it would be an education for me. But until I see it I don't believe it.
  18. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    By all means, post a vid of this. I'm betting that its either very light, semi co-operative or just looks like anyother bit of kick boxing lol.
  19. JSun

    JSun Valued Member

    Granted, they're not trying to knock each other out, but they're sparring, not fighting. They use restraint.

    They work out at a school on the west side of Houston, which is about an hour away from me, but I'll see if I can bring the camera out and get some footage.

    What I can say is they're good at what they do. These guys have been training for over a decade and they're in impeccable condition. They teach tai-chi and longfist, so I can't say how well they'd fair over a different style (because I haven't seen them compete outside of their class), but I can say I'd put my money on these guys over the average Martial Joe.
  20. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Cullion - Video is your personal obsession not mine.
    I say: video, schmideo - I don't train to convince myself (or anyone else) how great I am at 'fighting'. Clips are too easily misunderstood anyhow ime. I was just commenting on what was shown - I don't rate the one-step, set up clips either.
    As soon as the camera comes out the situation changes, just like putting on gloves and stepping into a set scenario ie boxing.
    I pray I never get in another street fight tbh and I train not to - entering competitions is not helpful to my Taiji, neither is wearing gloves to practice, although I do sometimes to spar with partners. When I spar I am always acutely aware that I hold back and don't do any of the things I would do with a committed street opponent. I disagree that there are 'rules' in street fights - there aren't ime
    Most of my training is to eliminate the stupidity in me that attracts violence from others and elicits violent reactions in myself in response to other's stupidity. All violence is stupid if it doesn't seek to protect life imo.
    EG this morning I had two young chavs trying to distract me while I was practising by talking about how hard they were very loudly and gesturing to show the last time they shoved someone's head into a lampost and punched them repeatedly. They kept glancing over to see what my reaction was.
    I simply finished my form and walked off. Who won?
    I really don't care what anyone else does tbh - I love the way I train and I know it works. Try not to take every counter view point as a criticism - that's just paranoia.
    Re the 'old guy' clip. Total waste of time and quite revolting imo
    It was basically a mugging by a young fit guy on an outclassed opponent. If you watch the old guy he keeps trying to hold and work the young guy, but can't because of his gloves. This kind of stuff just reduces Taijiquan to mere physical boxing which means the younger and fitter you are the better you will be. That was not the intention of the Taiji founders imho
    You may think differently.

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