Taiji teaching methodology (Split from Oh My GOD!!!!!!!!!! )

But the boxer isn't just "meat and bones" either is it - you already mentioned "agression". If he throws it without aggression will it be different again?

If there is "energy" in the body everyone is using it. There are bio-mechanical "tricks" or subtleties or refinements. There are also psychological states of mind that have a profound influence on them.

Jargonising seems to cause most of the problems - are we looking at the map or the actual landscape?

cheers
Rob

 

Ckava -
RobP - completely agree - 'energy' exists in all things and is just a shorthand term to me... (if you read what I said again, I never said the boxer was 'just meat and bones' - I was answering the peeps who dismiss everything as purely physical technique [none-such thing imo] As for the aggression, of course it affects the delivery of power/energy/force [delete as applicable] well imo anyway... )

Well it's a lot closer than the other clip (which I think was 'poo' style taiji maybe...)
this is Tian Yin Jia doing a small part of the small frame at one of the demo's I attended... Compare and contrast: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQeXthRy1rw"]small frame - YouTube[/ame]
:Angel:

 

Lots of great points there (thanks CKava & RobP).

Re: my typing jins - yes, I'm more comfortable with the term "power" because to me it sounds like something tangible. Energy is something people talk about to SOUND mystical. Also energy terminology is used by people who claim you don't need to use your muscles AT ALL.

That kind of thing makes more sense to me. I think when we communicate, we have a responsibility to try to use terms the listener will understand. I often don't "get" talk about "internal work" and "energy work" because people can so rarely explain it in tangible terms. It isn't that I don't know about changing intention a bit to adapt to changing circumstances in a fighting situation, but if people use language like "step with intent," I ask myself "step with intent to do what?"

I went to a seminar once where we were supposed to make our left leg magically step out to the side by sinking low on the other leg. No amount of sinking would make my leg start wandering off on its own, regardless of how much "energy" I was allegedly creating. Time and again the teachers said "feel that?" and I said "no..." There was one time towards the end where I might have felt something, but I put it down to mass hypnotism or peer pressure. But I never thought for a minute it would have any use in a fight.

So I prefer to talk about kicks, punches, deflections, rollbacks etc. etc. I also talk about reeling silk rotation and about undulation and about the eight methods, but even then I've assessed each one according to 3 criteria - the purpose of the movement, any characteristic quality the movement might have (expansive; sensitive etc.) and the direction of the movement.

Can I use it in a fight? and can I teach it to someone else in terms they'll understand? - that's what I concern myself with.

 

acid test

p.s.

Julie's Dad was a Royal Marine Green Beret. He went on to be a property developer and a farmer. He's a down-to-earth, practical kind of guy. You might know someone else like this - maybe a parent or someone who lives on your street. Julie's acid test is "how could I explain this meaningfully to my Dad?" That kind of sums up our approach. Normal people switch off when you start talking about "energies" and I don't blame them.

 

it's all just words really...

Okay I'll insert my comments in red to save space...

I can explain this stuff to anyone's Dad - but best in person and by demonstration - words are so clumsy...
:Angel:

 

Hey - I know what Tai Chi people are like. They never call a spade a spade when they could describe it as an energetic earth transferer.

Yours might be - I'm known for my delicately poetic metaphors

Ah - now you are trying to bamboozle me with esoteric language again. I'm still struggling with "grok" and "numpty." Let me get this right - "Grok" is Turkish spinach soup right, and a "Numpty" is a small potato dumpling, flavoured with basil and ground pine nuts. I just want to check we're all speaking the same language...

Kicks and punches are so more descriptive though, not to mention the delicate poetry of the metaphor.

 

Close this thread, we're all numpties (idiots) for thinking we can have a normal conversation.. :bang:

Life can be about love and humour, 'IMA' is about training a discipline which happens to be about physical contact fighting.

It has to be said!

If you don't train it with that purpose, don't make it out to be about something that our lives are about. Our lives are about lots of stuff besides.

It's not specific to IMA. If you follow that path then know it in another way.. For the sake of clarity.

If there is 'power' to IMA it is your own.

 

I'll second that - I think we've run our course. Still, it was nice to end on a more humorous note I think.

Regards to all.

 

What I mean is this: love or humour are intangible qualities that we experience, but cannot (imho) be satisfactorily defined or quantified, that's all...so I used them as a simile because I feel the same about energy/power/internal/whatever work. That takes nothing away from Taiji being a martial art, I think it adds another dimension to it. What is it with you guys and duality btw lol? Think of those old geezers with love tattooed on one fist and hate on the other... Both ideas exist in the same person, it isn't an either/or lifetime choice - they are just two aspects like yin and yang or summit eh?
JKZ - I have no idea what you actually mean by 'silk reeling' - to me that sounds like energy work, can you explain it for me please?
Zendog - Next time you train with Alex ask him about this stuff, I'd be genuinely interested in what he says. He talked about qi development quite a lot last time I saw him... then he kicked my ass round Holland Park . He didn't seem to see a conflict of ideas there, and neither do I
Why do you guys keep wanting to end the thread btw? It's an interesting discussion about Taiji, the slanging's stopped... or are you worried you might end up accepting something you're uncomfortable with?
Yielding is strength
:Angel:

 

I don't need to ask Alex about this stuff .. We all have 'qi'..

What does yielding have to do with 'qi development'. I agree that softness can be strength. But you you are just as much developing 'yourself'.

I appreciate that paths are individual. Yes i do use the path of IMA as a tool to develop my 'self'. Bottom line we all do. But i also appreciate that we are all different and do it/ use it differently - individually.

If everyone carried on trying to hoist their individual values on something everyone shares I think it does more harm than good. I think it is better to have IMA as an art that is good for more than one thing, but there is just one thing that is not a case of individual preference and that happens to be martial. If this isn't first on the collective level, it may well deteriorate in quality dramatically.. I think there is good evidence for that.

I can seperate things when I find them useful. Rolling things like taoism into it and applying all that that entails is good for me on a personal level which enhances the martial value and enhances the experience (for me). But not everyone is a a 'taoist' in the sense i know you, I and Alex are for example.

If i know Alex at all, he references things to how people experience and understand them. he is truly wise!

We don't have to close the thread of course, don't mind my histrionics..

Tb you are a buddhist, I have 'zen'.. how necessary is it to make IMA all about philosophy and 'qi development' on a collective level. They should be just there if people want them. I use them, but I don't expect everyone to be the same - see my sig!

They will find these things if they want them and use them as appropriate. It is not up to any of us . In the martial section of the forum i think we should give primacy to the common objective (agreed on) ground. If you want to talk love and humour and the development of self. There is a perfectly good philosophy or religious section. Which i am happy to use. Perhaps you can understand this and do the same ?

Would that be too much to ask for the sake of being clear about what is what..And what its place is. The place for those things is mostly private or in a discussion of religion/ philosophy.

I don't want IMA practice to be my philosophy/ religion - it just happens to be a part. How much is a personal thing..

I feel it is better to respect that others don't want religion or philosophy in the same context as me and don't care to muddy the waters were it doesn't serve the best purpose for the whole. You can't please all the people all the time so in those matters it is best to leave people to their own devices.

Martial is the only universal device IMA has, we should respect that over our own personal needs.. It is selfish and ego driven to do otherwise.

If you are on a crusade to make people 'better' become a preacher (we are all 'preaching something aren't we?). If I want to 'preach about martial stuff I do it here. If I want to talk about the universe and the the state of affairs and all the tools and devices people discover through a process and progression of living. I will do it there. It just has nothing to do really with the martial art in itself. That should be what this section is for in my not so humble opinion.............

I don't want IMA to be about saving people from themselves. They can do that themselves. I will always encourage that it can help if you want it to and that's it.

 

I broadly agree zd you are truly wise (you git )
I am not actually discussing philosophy or religion here tbh - just depth. "Taiji is deep" as Alex would say, and we shouldn't deny that out of hand because we're peed off at a load of numpty's painting qi rainbows round their dreamcatchers lol....
Also from a practical pov, MA techniques without mind development (confidence, awareness, calmness under pressure etc) and strategic (including ethical/legal/moral) considerations can seriously let you down if you ever get in a 'fix' ime/o.
This is, I believe, what the marriage between civil and martial is all about - common sense to save your butt from getting stuck or going somewhere it never needed to go, plus and thus, making you live longer by consequence
Hoorah for the Taiji!
:Alien:
PS quan... quan.. quan... ok???

 

LOLLY POPS you great sage & onion

I don't disagree with this either, but sometimes drawing lines helps us see better, sometimes taking them away can help us see better. Alex is a deep person and disciplined, that is why his skills have the depth they do..

The question of depth again is personal not universal.

All martial arts are 'civil' then by this definition. This definition does not include 'qi' as a catch all term, or any personal or group philosophy about the art in question.

You can say the same about any self defence system or martial art.

Lots of things may make you live longer, and lots of things may kill you prematurely. When i train i don't really think about that, i'm occupied by working on my IMA to get attached to fruitless things..

Nothing can cheat death, not even the venerable taiji... quan..

 

OK, we don't have to close the thread if you want to keep it going. But please try to keep the bitchiness to a minimum TJB (poo style Taiji indeed!)

Reeling silk refers to constant smooth rotation - the rate of rotation has to be constant otherwise the thread would snap (it's a metaphor for reeling silk).

Hong Junsheng described it as "two circles". Modern Silat guys sometimes describe it as "gyroscopic rotation" (I think Bob Orlando might have come up with the phrase).

When I move there must always be constant rotation. If I extend my hand or pull it back it must always be rotating steadily along its long axis. It will usually also be making an arc of some sort, so it is like a spinning arrow or a spinning roller. My article "8 uses for reeling silk" gives ideas on its application. http://www.reelingsilk.co.uk/8usesforreelingsilk.htm

I don't see that as energy, but as a quality of movement. In a combative arena, it has direction and purpose / intention too which can be often defined by the eight methods either singly or in combination (a purposefully lifting / uprooting rollback combines peng and lu for example - in Chen style thinking, the methods transmute naturally along their circular paths.

 

That's right, but it is not the circular paths that put them there. You can't just do circular movements in whatever 'concert' even add in waves and the methods majically transmute .. Peng itself is not a wave, but you might use it that way. Peng is a quality that may move in a wave in a certain direction, it may also just burst out in all directions.

note: i should add as I have learnt it and i just did.

 

Sure - but that's why we assess techniques / methods in terms of martial purpose (perhaps diverting upwards and uprooting for peng), movement quality (expansiveness in peng's case) and direction (omni-directional and / or rising in peng's case) - these dictate the exact shape, which can be as 3 dimensional as the flight-path of a swallow, especially when combined with the five stepping strategies.

http://www.plumpub.com/info/Articles/art_zoryaquality.htm

This way, we also neatly avoid having to talk about "energy" and everyone gets what we mean! Hooray!

 

Meh direction is still just direction..I know those things are important for teaching martial applications.
I only have one martial purpose.. Seek and destroy!

I think you'll really love this page jk... http://www2.gol.com/users/ddh/eng/f_04_eightgates.htmlThe lineage is from Yang Ban Hou

Some interesting ideas on there.. some I've not heard put like that before. Any thoughts(anyone and everyone)?

 

Told you reeling silk was important. Inward or outward, flowing or counterflowing reeling silk...

I don't really get the bit about ji / chi having anything to do with receiving. I've seen the thing about Lie / Lieh and striking out before - like a slingstone shooting out. My Chen style teacher described Lie as "any sideways movement" as it refers to sweeping from side to side with a broom.

There's a book out with this lineage's stuff called "The T'ai Chi Boxing Chronicle" by Kuo / Guttmann. IMO it isn't the easist read but it has good bits in it.

 

That’s right, otherwise we'd have no silk.

 

... and all the reel makers would be unemployed....

 

.... and in the end all TaiJi would be extinct, cause we'd have no silky pyjamas to train in... :cry: