T'ai Chi Classics by Waysun Liao

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Tachyon, May 8, 2013.

  1. jnanasakti

    jnanasakti Valued Member

    I haven't studied under Waysun Liao, I've met him once. Waysun Liao basically has two top students, my Sifu and Ron Hoffman (out of Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA). My Sifu's been practicing for 38 years or somewhere thereabouts.
  2. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    I think you'll find that collectively, the members here have checked out a lot of schools/styles. Likewise, it’s generally a no-nonsense attitude around here, so any school which is largely new age mumbo jumbo with no physical manifestation of skill tends to get trashed and I think rightly so. There are way too many charlatans in the Tai Chi world selling snake oil to the gullible.

    Have you trained with any other schools/teachers other than your own?

    Ok, I'm guessing your Sifu is Gary Clyman? I hear his method is quite heavy on the breath retention/condensing, iron body/golden bell and such. Assuming I am right, I have heard both good and bad about him, to be honest more bad than good and certainly controversial, never met him though, so hold no personal opinion. I do not however agree with the whole mail order chi gung stuff, especially for high risk methods, or any methods really, teaching should be in person, vids and such is just reference material.

    Would be interesting to hear your personal view on the effects your training has had on your mind/body.

    Do you guys do much uncooperative partner training (sparring, pushing, etc)?
  3. jnanasakti

    jnanasakti Valued Member

    Ha! No it's not Gary Clyman, but good guess. Actually Gary Clyman never studied directly under Waysun Liao. He studied with one of Waysun Liao's students. Clyman's studied a long time and he definitely has some power but within the temple tai chi community he's known as a bit of a nut, in that he exhibits some unbalance.

    My Sifu is behind the shadows. He's like Lao Tzu in this sense, moving about his life and practice, generally unconcerned with world and it's happenings.

    If you think the taoist tai chi org is new age mumbo jumbo well, I really don't have much more to say. Althought I don't see how a taoist practice could be new age. http://www.taoist.org.uk/ looks like it's a pretty big organization, you think all those people are brainwashed? I mean so many people practicing tai chi are charlatans selling snake oil. I'd say at least 30% of tai chi community are charlatans in that case. So be it.
  4. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Fair enough, he does seem quite mad at times.

    But have you studied with any other schools/teachers as you generally recommend to us? Personally, I’ve spent a good few years with numerous teachers/schools and styles before I found one which offers the most to me. Likewise, as you say, I think this is something one should do, otherwise you can potentially end up in a school thinking you know everything as you have not gone outside, tested others and hence not gained any perspective on your practice.

    I did not pass any judgment on the taoist tai chi org as I have never come across them before, but if they were any good, I’m sure I would have heard of them, of course I may be wrong. However, there are not that many exceptionally skilled tai chi teachers in the UK and particularly with this group, as their emphasis is health, spirituality, etc, I don’t have any interest in seeking them out for reasons explained in my post No. 9 (in this thread), been there done that so to speak. Besides I have plenty of stuff to work on in my own curriculum and no time to spare, nor need in chasing other schools, again been there done that.

    Just wanted to add, with regards to brainwashing and large organisations, it’s quite common for the two to go hand in hand, I guess it’s something to do with mob mentality and critical mass. Beyond a certain point, criticising or going against the flow is not possible and the lowest common denominator takes over. An extreme example would be something like Falun Gong, with which I have had direct experience and I would say they are brainwashed.
  5. jnanasakti

    jnanasakti Valued Member

    I have not studied with any other schools or teachers. I've meet many tai chi/qi gong practitioners but haven't studied with them. Years ago, I met Gary Clyman at a music shop out of no where. Where I live, Evanston IL (home to Northwestern University) the park that I practice it there's two individuals who I've met. One practices Tai chi although not temple style but still with the meditative emphasis, that guy's pretty good. At the same park there's a Qi Gong master who's out there most every day early in the morning practicing his exercises. I've crossed paths with him many times and the last time he gave me the advice of "Motion in stillness and stillnesss in motion". So I've dealt with different practitioners but haven't gone to any other schools. I don't have anyone I could recommend. There is one person who comes to mind that might have some seminars in the UK. Adam Mizner (http://www.heavenmanearth.com/home.htm, https://www.facebook.com/HeavenManEarth); you can search his name on youtube but he's an internalist/or as you might consider a charlatan.
  6. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    So hold on, your telling people that they should broaden their horizons, yet you don’t follow this approach? Is this not a bit hypocritical?

    With regards to internalist/charltans idea, I’m not sure where you get that from. Realistically of course, this duality of internalist/externalist is really nonsense on several levels, starting with the origin of the term “internal” which was never an allusion to training methods but to the origin of certain martial arts styles. Nevertheless, there sure is a spectrum of meditative to more physical practices, but again, its not either/or and in large part depends on the practitioners development, awareness and how they compose themselves moment to moment. Likewise, I find its usually people who have a very limited training background that tend to separate things out in to either or debates, especially the internal/external, but this is, in my opinion, primarily due to lack of experience in one or the other. At the end of the day, an individual could be riding a horse, juggling flaming knives while blowing bubbles with his bubble gum and listening to music on their mp3 player, yet the mind might be in a meditative state or not, no one except the individual will know, so passing judgement in terms of “internal/external”, “meditative/not meditative” is purely subjective mental masturbation and serves no benefit to anyone. However, I suppose if a skilled practitioner is training you at a particular moment, they would have the possibility to ascertain how much mental presence/awareness their student may or may not have, but that is a whole other relationship between teacher/student and specific to a certain practice.

    Regarding, Adam Mizner, seen his videos, never met him, so cant pass judgemnt, though I would probably go to a seminar if he was in town providing he’s not charging some ridiculous price.

    Perhaps you should check out some other schools and styles and see how they affect your perspective. Are you not open to this idea?
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2013
  7. jnanasakti

    jnanasakti Valued Member

    You're missing the point. I knew your question about other schools was geared to follow up and try to trap me in some type of insular position as a person who hasn't studied other systems, but I answered anyway and honestly because, well, I don't care. Like I said I've meet many other practitioners who practice in a similar way so I'm comfortable proceeding on my path. If you think I should check out a school that teaches angles and muscle relaxation but nothing else, that would be a regression so I'm not interested in that. Although in the future I might visit such a school just to kick someone's ass.
  8. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    I'm not trying to trap you, you did that yourself. I'm just pointing out the contradictions in your statements.

    Have you ever tested your style against other so called internal and/or external practitioners? What makes you so sure of yourself? In fact, I think such blind confidence is against basic Taoist precepts in that you are projecting a future scenario based solely on your own belief and confidence in yourself, not seeing that the future is a mystery. Unless of course you can see it :) Such an approach of replacing what may really be there with what you want to be there is surely not recognising reality as it is and instead superimposing your own illusion on to it.

    To be honest, and I hope you don't take it as n insult, but from what I hear of the training methods of your style, providing of course I'm not wrong, there is a real possibility of megalomania and delusions from such training and the same has been stated by several relatively well known teachers. Do bear this in mind.
  9. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Your arrogance is quite astounding...
  10. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    :confused:Frankly, you just don't express yourself in a way I think of when I think of people who spend hours a day meditating.

    You come across as really angry. And with a need to prove yourself over others rather than feeling comfortable without outside validation. Hence the need to assert your training as the valid one while others aren't. If one is secure WITHIN, one doesn't need to assert OVER.

    Your online demeanor and what one associates as a more enlightened attitude that comes with meditation just don't mesh.

    Setting aside the fighting or other aspects of your TCC, I just am not impressed by what your meditation is cultivating.

    It doesn't fit with the classic idea of meditative development.
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2013
  11. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I don't know about others, but I do have problem with this kind of attitude.
  12. jnanasakti

    jnanasakti Valued Member

    I have been arrogant but that doesn't dismiss meditative development. I'm not a monk and I've never claimed to be. It seems that's your frame or reference for someone who meditates.

    It's okay to be strong and meditative. A General can be greatly meditative even though he may harshly stoic and constantly engaging in combat.

    People are still people whether you meditate or not. One still has a personality. I'm passionate about my opinions and I have no problem censuring someone, or "telling it how it is".
  13. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    If you had a strong character then you wouldn't feel the need to belittle other people or their chosen art. You can be strong and meditative without being arrogant and rude. Maybe you should meditate on that.
  14. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    You completely missed my original point.

    I wasn't discussing your arrogance. Take a look at my post again.

    And you made an incorrect assumption about my frame of reference for meditating. Most of the people I have known who do a lot of meditation (and my personal experiences) come from various Western Mystery Traditions and/ or various Neo-Pagan influences. My particular tradition would be Victor Anderson's Feri Tradition which isn't "Monk Like" at all. I have also had a little experience going to a Siddha Yoga group. This is a meditive group, not the moving yoga.

    My statement about what meditation is supposed to cultivate vs what you are showing in your posts still stands. It just isn't what you are misinterpreting it as.

    Anyways, I need to find a quote to post here if I can. It would be more in line with getting this thread closer to being back on track.
  15. zombiekicker

    zombiekicker bagpuss

    what about chen man chengs book any good?
  16. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Good for what?
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Cool story bro :rolleyes:

    If you go into ANY school with that attitude you are already so far on the "douche" scale that you can see the sun
  18. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant


    People who actually go out and test their stuff, gain humility in the process, if they didn’t have it to begin with.

    It's usually the ones who have not put themselves under this type scrutiny that run their mouths about kicking butt in some fictional future scenario. Luckily, reality soon puts these sorts of individuals in their place and they either become wise to their previous smug behaviour or crawl back under their rock where they can live in their comfortable fantasy world. Ignorance is bliss!

    Making noodles? :)
  19. ned

    ned Valued Member

    "He who speaks does not know,he who knows does not speak".

    I would have thought all your meditation would have taught you the wisdom of silence .
  20. Robinhood

    Robinhood Banned Banned

    All classic books say the same thing, you can not read it trying to literally learn much, just read it , train with real teacher, go read it again and so on for years. If you start to recognize some things make sense or are starting to , then you might be improving, keep this up for years, if nothing is making sense, change teachers.

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