I am too, while my opinion of General Choi as a person hasn't changed (and I doubt it will) I am already feeling that maybe I haven't given him enough credit for the effort he put in to TKD. I don't remember ever seeing a statement as to why. I have a book on my desk by the World Taekwondo Federation published in 1975 and it has Taekwondo written as one word in there. I was only born in 1974, so it's likely been Taekwondo for all my life ;-) They maybe did it to differentiate between them and Taekwon-do (but I doubt it as the han'gul is the same). They maybe did it because they believe as I do - it's one word, one concept. The truth is I don't know why they did it. I wish I could help. What was the reason you were given by the ITFer?
True, but it would make me re-evaluate what he did in the past to be able to do those good deeds. Anyway, I don't think this is as related to General Choi as you do. Could you explain the link... While you are right that they claim that I was reading the Kukkiwon textbook last night in horror at the way they talk about things like Taekkyondo (never heard it with a -do suffix) and then put in brackets (Taekwondo) have been around for centuries. But, I still don't think that's why they don't credit people. They could easily list the seniors and say "those are the people responsible for converting Taekkyondo(Taekwondo) in to modern-day Taekwondo". I'd like to think that when you reach 9th Dan then you are above needing your name in lights to say "look at me, look what I did". It's all about the art, not about the person at those levels. I like that they don't credit every person involved, they shouldn't need crediting.
Funny thing is, of the fights I`ve seen, those (presumidly non-MA's) seem to know its a good idea to punch at the jaw, kick to the groin etc.! But yes agreed, thread for another day! Of course we are all students, but if you instruct as well, then to those in your class, you are the treacher/instructor. I know a couple that do, but no, its not that common. Stuart
I always write Taekwondo as one word because that is how it is in Korean. Korean language generally doesn't use "dashes" and when a bunch of syllables make up a word, it is written together to keep it all tidy. Even people's names are written as three syllables close together, not separated by spaces. Korean uses a lot of syllable groupings and if you separate them out, you may make new words or unintended meanings. I understand the idea behind the whole "Taekwon-do" notion, but I prefer to Romanize the word more directly from Korean... as "Taekwondo" (νκΆλ).
TKDStudent Plaque #66 As far as the II-Cert, he was publicly appointed to that position by the verbal declaration of General Choi in Skokie, IL 1975-76, but I am uncertain of the issuance number. This was at the banquet after the ratification of the Constitution and Bylaws for the USTF. (Others in attendance were Nam, Tae Hi, Yong Dong Ja, Kong Young Il, Robert Walson, and Charles Sereff). I gained verbal confirmation of this a few years ago during conversation with Master Robert Walson. Apparently, my father road from the hotel to the banquet with Gen. Choi, Mr. Walson, Nam Tae Hi, and Yong Dong Ja. Can you confirm the year when the ITF formally began issuing II-Certification. If I remember correctly the rank certificates at the time were issued as simply A-4-xx. Regards, Spookey
Quote: Originally Posted by TKDstudent But I think you are making it clear that you don't do ITF or Chang Hon TKD, nor do you do WTF or Kukki TKD. Therefore I assume that you feel that there is a difference. Am I right in my conclusion? If so, then since we are talking about 3 DIFFERENT entities, then it stands to reason that there are at least 3 different founders. Not to drive you crazy, but there was actually 2 groups of founders. One led by Gen. Cho (ITF) & one led by Dr. Kim (WTF). The others, or independents can not be categorized as neatly as the other 2, as they have their own stories & often it can be traced to a person or 2, but they are small groups. Just to be clearer: There were only 6 early kwans, but 7 Koreans would studied MAs abroad, who then opened the 6 early kwans. Of course there were other Koreans who studied abroad, but they did hapkido, yudo etc. There is nothing wrong with using TKD as an umbrella term. I can also agree or see validity with that approach. However if that is the case, then there really can't be any founder(s), as that is like the independents. No realw ay to categorize, so how can we determine a concise founder(s) In this case I think the best we can do is say Gen. Choi gave them the name TKD, but they did with it what they wished, so therefore no real cohesion & the potential for unlimited founders, depending on how you list those under that really BIG umbrella! Please do not get me wrong. I have no problem with how someone wants to look at TKD. However, once it is clear of the concept of how one views TKD, then a rational discussion can take place on how that TKD came into being. With the work I have done & continue to do, thanks to the help & input of this forum, if you describe the TKD concept to me, I will try to give you THAT particular roots if I know it. To much confusion exists as people argue unnecessarily IMHO over the history & development of TKD. The label TKD has been applied to many different entities & concepts. First say what kind of TKD you are talking about, then a proper & more efficient exchange can take place, minus the unneeded animosity, again, JMHO. As to why it is important that people understand how the TKD name was introduced, who came up with it, who approved it (ROK President Rhee, 1955), who initially used it & when did others use it is important because it is history. It is factual & should be understood by all. This way there is no fighting caused by confusion or mis-information. Even a potential for more unity, harmony & less tension. Now this does not mean that ITF or Chang Hon TKD is better, because it was the 1st to apply the name to their unique system. Not at all. But understanding that Gen. Choi was the principle founder or one who led that effort, will also then make it clear that he had little if anything to do with Kukki or WTF TKD! In fact, he tried his best to hamper that development once he couldn't control it. Knowing this also helps cut through the garbage that has been put out by all sides, especially the 2,000 year old myth. Finally why shouldn't we list & credit, even formally thank those that are still alive or honor their family survivors for their great contributions? Are you not thankful or appreciative of their efforts? Do you feel that it important to have a sense of gratitude, are you generally a grateful person? If not, why not? The MAs teach these, don't they? Or are you just in it for the physical side? (Which is ok) If you are generally a grateful person, start showing some gratitude for these people who made people around the world stronger & improved aspects of the lives of countless millions! I for one would rahter have more gratitude than animosity. (NOte: The use of the term you, is ONLY in the generic sense, not meant to apply to any particular person, but any reader. Nor is it accusatory, but rather offered to provoke thought) Yes I would call myself someone who admires the great contributions of Gen. Choi. His writings & what he left the world will be around a long time after people stop spreading lies & focusing on his shortcomings in an attempt to discredit him. Forget the man if you want, but read what he wrote & more importantly try to follow it, JMHO. Also understand where most of the negative attacks come from & the motivation. Now I also know that Gen. Choi was a human & far from perfect, nor was he some sort of deity. he did a lot of harm in his life & hurt many people. I was not one of them & I never EVER excuse poor behavior & can try to separate mistakes, misjudgments from nasty &/or premeditated harm or attacks. I am aware of some of his flaws that all human beings have, myself included.
While this is a formal requirement that is part of the official ITF Chang Hon syllabus, sadly it is not widespread. Why? I think many do not know the history of their Art & realize that Chang Hon or original TKD was born in the ROK Army for SD! Far too many ITF schools (& by ITF schools, I mean current, up to date registered ITF schools, as you get a numbered plaque, use ITF doboks, get ITF BB certs, compete in ITF tournaments, train at ITF events & follow the updated methods of ITF TKD training) simply concentrate on tournament sports rules sparring contests & patterns. This in large part is the fault of Gen. Choi, who obsessed with his patterns. mind you, he accomplished something no one else ever did in history, almost single handily, which was to have a true world-wide standard of performing his Tuls, where some 50-80 nations would show up at a WCs & the winner was the one who came closest to the standard he set, taught & enforced. (Not bad for a non-martial artist) It is called FREE SPARRING, where combatants are FREE to use any & all available means of attack & defense. (Within obvious safety measures) This is supposed to come in at the 4th gup blue belt level. It is essentially anything goes fighting & can & should be in all combos, ie 1vs 1, 2 vs 1, 5 vs 2, 7 vs 3, etc. Fighting does not, nor should it stop if 1 or more go to the ground. It has become a favorite part of training for those that think to do it. It is required & not to be mistaken with formal hoosinsul, SD, which comes in at 2nd grade red belt, which agsain, far too many ITFers do as make believe hollywood made up fight scenes. Original TKD, as laid out by Gen. Choi requires realism. But far too many are doing sport, Tul competition is sport
Thats fine & I appreciate your statement. Please remember that he had little if anything to do with Kukki TKD. In fact he worked against their efforts, once he couldn't control it. He also led a movement, with the help of NK & other communist countries to keep WTF TKD out of the Olympics & place it with the original TKD or ITF TKD. That was his argument. When he couldn't win it, he then pushed for a merger or combining of the rules, along with equal access for ITFers. Of course he was not successful, as we know from history. However that stance, as many agreed with, also had many who were upset greatly by it. Naturally & it is understandable, as I clearly understand it, that created a lot more hatred for Gen. Choi & gave his detractors more dirt & mud to throw at him. Some of that was downright treasonous in the eyes of many Koreans, as well as admirable in the eyes of many other Koreans. Regardless, his political actions should not take away from what he accomplished, even though he may not have directly impacted you. But surely I feel the same way for Dr. Kim Un Yong. I know he was KCIA. I know he worked for an evil string of military dictators & generals. I make no such claim that he was evil, as I have seen no evidence of it. His crimes were punished, he paid his price. But Dr. Kim is rightfully called the father of Olympic TKD & is a great Korean patriot. I applaud his work & thank him for it. None of us are perfect & navigating the nasty world of Korean politics is difficult at best. Neither have I & wished there was a reason. I am not saying it was to just be different than the ITF or to distance themselves from Gen. Choi. But Gen. Choi had a reason for why he wrote it that way & did so from at least 1959, when it was written in English. Gen. Choi usually had a reason for everything that he taught. He states in his training secrets of TKD that one should understand the purpose & method of each movement clearly. Certainly if we do not understand why we are doing something & how we are supposed to do it, chances are that we will not do it as efficiently as we should. When this comes to SD & making one's life better, less efficient is less good. So I was hoping to learn the REASON why the KTA, KKW & WTF wright it the way they do. In a paper written by the late GM Tran, a student of Gen. Choi, who was president of 1 of the ITFs after Gen. Choi passed away, he (GM Tran) wrote that the WTF does it: Taekwondo, as they believe in training the mind & body as one. Now I am only going off the top of my head with this, but the full article appears on the website of the ITF-V, in their archive section. It was written 2004/05. I think they are worth reading. What I do clearly remember is that he did not quote or give a source for why he stated the WTF writes it that way. So I do not feel comfortable stating that this is official policy of the Kukki TKD viewpoint. So I caution against it becoming that, based on an ITFer. This is why i wish someone from Kukki TKD would say what the official reason is. The same for the Jr. BB that the ITF uses of half white & half black. I know why those colors were picked by Gen. Choi & the ITF, but not why the Poom half red & half black belt is used by the KKW/WTF. Nor do I think I ever read what the colors of any of the KKW/WTF belts mean or signify. The ITF makes it clear in all of Gen. Choi's textbooks. So hopefully someone from Kukki TKD can get us an official answer........
Quote:Originally Posted by TKDstudent "Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that your Uncle did good &/or great things for you before. If he did good things, he has to get credit for that, does he not? It is perfectly reasonable to decide that now that you found out how poorly he treated your Aunt, that you wish to curtail your future relationship with him, but that doesn't change the fact that he DID DO GOOD by you in the past!" Here is what I mean: No one is perfect. So while your make believe Uncle was great to you, he may not have been as nice to others. None of us are free from faults & shortcomings. I can be a great mother, but terrible wife. I can be a great worker, but terrible Mum, I can be a great friend, but terrible sister. To me, one has little to do with another, especially other inter/intra personal relationships, as it takes 2 to tango. Gen. Choi gave up his family when he exiled himself to Canada in 1972, the height of the brutality under the 1st military dictator in SK. The dictatorship held his family hostage. He did not return! In essence, he forsake them. He constantly traveled the world, often joking he had 2 homes, 1 in Canada, 1 in the plane, as he was rarely home. How did his family feel? Gen. Choi, because of his love of Country & TKD, his ego & his politics, made many enemies. These detractors,led by the brutal KCIA, one of the most viscous state secret police operations to ever exist in the west, via SK's alignment with the US & Western nations, led an all out assault on him, his followers & the ITF. While many things they said were true & some of those feelings were justified, they had little to do with us in the TKD world, outside of Korea. So while your fictional uncle may have not treated your fictional aunt that well, it doesn't change the fact that he was great to you & that is what I link to Gen. Choi. Both can still be thanked & credited for the good. How we move forward with another, when we learn more about them, is another story, where due diligence is usually a good thing. Gen. Choi was vilified as a communist sympathizer, because he took his TKD to communist countries. Years later, as the WTF always seemed to be playing catch up to Gen. Choi & the ITF, they invite the same communist countries to the WTF WCs & pay their expenses. So what are they? Gen. Choi was called a communist traitor when he, as a Canadian citizen went to NK in 1979. 21 years later, the SK president goes to NK & advocates a sunshine policy, to open the doors & windows to NK. What was he? Then in 1980, Gen. Choi brings the 7th ITF Demo Team to NK. Dr. Kim Un Yong goes there 20 years later! What is he? (Note: Part of Dr. Kim's legal problems that he was convicted of & served prison time for, was related to his dealings with NK & funneling money to them, under the table, in violation of SK law. Now of course he says he was only following orders, as it was the new presidential administration that tried him, but it was against the law, KCIA or not) Yes it is still on the WTF website as well. It is embarrassing! Now I am confident in my assertion that it because of the Japanese connection. How can Korea's national sport, the MA, that is now an olympic sport, be traced to the Japanese karate via Okinawa, via the hated Japanese, by Koreans who studied it in Japan, during the occupation that Koreans call the "dark period"? It can't, plain & simple. Don't take my word for it. Look to what GM Lee Chong Woo (Kukki TKD principle founder) said when interviewed by Yook in 2002. Or look at the work of Kukki BB, former WTF employee & 1st American, if not the 1st non-Korean to earn a PhD from Korea in TKD, Dr. S. Capener, when he lays it all out in his writings from his in-depth research. Or try independent GM Kim Soo, who was the 1st correspondent to BB mag back in the 1960s from Korea. I even think Dr. Kim Un Yong has said the same thing in print. I think many ITFers think the other side (WTF/KKW) talk about the history being 2,000 years old was to discredit Gen. Choi. That is a minor reason, if even done on purpose. maybe more of a side benefit, as the KTA, KKW & WTF ignore Gen. Choi, as they do with all of their founding members (for the most part). No BIG mis-understanding underlined & bold above! It is not about "THEM" wanting names in light or seeking credit, BUT about us, those that benefited from what they gave us & those in the future who will benefit from it as well. Many of them are still alive! So we have to move fast! sadly some have already passed. But we can forever memorialize their collective efforts & should do so now, so these "old timers" can take some pride & realize their impact & how much they are appreciated. Korea should lead this effort. But sadly, the reality is that they can not be fully trusted, as the Japanese issue is still there & shouldn't be. No problem showing where you came from or started. Emphasize where you are today & how & who got you there! This is what both GM Lee & Dr. Capener in essence say. Again, they would be following the lead that Gen. Choi took long ago, but it is overdue. SK is already paying to send Mooto reporters around the world to interview these Pioneers. The WTF already honored some of the original ITF Pioneers at an official ceremony. So it is happening & as you can imagine, the power of the internet to get the word out & highlight the truth, despite what govt entites do, is unlimited.
The II Certs are serial numbered like the ITF Branch Plaques. There is no letter(s) designations for countries, like the BBs certs. They appear at least as early as 1972, in the 1st ed of the text. Obviously they had to be earlier than that. If I am not mistaken & I can check, you can see the date from that 1st sample. Now to be clear, as many in the ITF even make this mistake: In order to be a certified International Instructor with the ITF, you must successfully complete an official IIC & be a minimum 4th Dan ITF with their cert. Then you must pay a separate fee for the II Cert, proving you have at least the 4th Dan ITF cert, as well as the proof of IIC completion. When you take an IIC, the ITF gives you a ITF International Training Cert. But that is not an II Cert. They look similar, but the training cert is what you need to prove you took the course. The ITF Rank certs were also horizontal in shape & design like the II, Umpire & Training Certs, before they switched to the vertical shape/design for the Dan rank certs.
What is the reason for the ITF/Ch'ang Hon spelling? I don't know an official answer, but to me a half red/half black makes more sense than a half white/black. A junior black belt is senior to a 1st Kup (mostly red with a black tag), but not yet the same as an adult black belt. So half-red/black is an exact describing of that situation. A half-white/black would signal to me that they're half way to between white belt and black belt (which they aren't, they'd already passed 5th Kup a while before). The Kukkiwon doesn't specify coloured belts for Kup ranks. The new WTF Poomsae uniforms specify Kup colours, but I don't think it's enforced for general usage - only official poomsae competition.
Thought I`d pre-empt TKDStudent Because Gen Choi wanted to emphasis the 'journey' aka 'The Do' and the tenets/moral culture aspects of TKD! The white in a jnr BB indicates the 'innocence of youth' Stuart
Reading through all of these posts have been fascinating but at the end of the 12th page, its almost like.....so? You have two organizations that hate each other, both are strong organizations, one a sport and one a SD oriented art. I'm not quite sure why each tries to out-do each other except for political reasons. The two styles really have little in common other than they both originated in Korea. I would suggest that the main in-fighting between styles is due to the amount of money involved. I don't think it has anything to do with having to certify this and that to maintain the 'purity' of the art, its all about money. If you have to pay to certify to be an AI, then an instructor, then senior instructor, then school owner, then the high dan fees, having to travel halfway across the country or world to certify....theres got to be tens of millions of dollars involved and someone or group is pocketing all that money. I personally became disillusioned with TKD when my at the first school I trained in and received my first dan, the korean owner who was ranked a 5th dan, went to a weekend seminar and came back an 8th dan. The seminar was taught by his uncle who was a 9th dan. So much for time in rank. So there seems to always be 'exceptions' to the rules, even when the kukkiwon and the powers that be in the ITF claim that there are hardfast ironclas rules. I also know the rules differ if your korean vs a non-korean. I've personally experienced discrimination while traveling and training in Korea being looked down upon and treated very differently than the koreans of the same rank.
Quote: Originally Posted by andyjeffries "What is the reason for the ITF/Ch'ang Hon spelling?" Yes Gen. Choi wanted to separate & show the 2 parts of his TKD, the physical & the non-physical or spirit. He also used the hyphen (-) or dash to not only separate them, but as the bridge between the 2, as it is the attention & diligent hard work to the physical, that over time leads one to the "DO". He also explained that he anted the "DO" to stand off by itself, as it is the most important part of his TK-D. Yes, combined with the black, which is the opposite of white, indicating maturity, ignoring fear. So the combo respects the physical training level of a Jr. BB, defined by the ITF as under 13yoa, but still is a visual reminder that those under 13 are still children that lack a certain level of maturity that generally starts to come in the teen years, which BTW begin at thirTEEN.
Yes 12 pages, going on 13! You are also correct. There certainly is a lot of friction between the 2 major groups. That is why this UNITY thread was started. I think that you make a good point, in that they 2 major groups or styles of TKD have little in common. So that is why I decided to go down the historical route to show that much of the friction is really not needed. Once more people understand that when we talk about history of TKD, there are not 2 version, mine & the other side, but at least 2 major paths or routes of historical development. One not better or more important than the other. And one TKD is not better or more important than the other. Once people read this & think about it, maybe they will settle down a bit, maybe even working together or at least playing nicer with each other. Then some type of unity may start. I never get into debates with others on the history of XXX MA, as I would just listen, admire their knowledge about their XXX MA & maybe express my admiration about their appreciation & understanding of where their XXX MA came from. Why can't we substitute ITF & WTF for the 3 XXXs & TKD for the MA? We have different paths of development & therefore different histories as well as different people responsible for making what we do today possible. Once we know that, the rest becomes a lot easier, IMHO!
Do you have meanings or significance for the colors of your school's belt system? Why does the KKW or WTF explain or teach about the symbolism of their belt colors? As to your reply above, I think that shows something else! A half red/black belt can surely show that it is above 1st gup, but it is not below BB, is it? The half red & half black belt is a Poom belt, for those under 16yoa. Is it not? Let me explain further. I started at 5 yoa. Been training now 10 years & am a 3rd Poom. You started 4 years ago & just got your 1st Dan BB, as you are 17yoa. Who is a higher rank? What then do the colors mean? Or make it a little more equal. I am a 15 year old 1st Poom but earned it 2 years ago. You are 17, but just earned your 1st Dan last month. What then does the color scheme show? I am confused about the red & black mix. Is it between red & black belt? Or does it signify under 16yoa? if it is in between, I can then follow the color scheme combo much better. The white/black halves is much easier for me too see (I know I am used to it by now). But a Jr. BB in the ITF is a fully earned BB. The white color addition, simply demonstrates to the viewer, that the BB is a child, not even a teen yet (13). Plain & simple, again JMHO
I've just prepared an information booklet for new students of my school, so as of a week ago, yes I can Apologies as this may be a bit long: White belt 10th Kup Is the colour of the absolute core of the Earth. At this point there is no life, only heat and excitement. White belt is given to beginner students and is the only rank not tested for. Yellow tag (9th Kup), Yellow belt (8th Kup) The colour of the cooling centre core of the Earth. This is still an early stage where the student is only just getting used to the routine of Taekwondo and life in the club (or dojang in Korean) Green tag (7th Kup), Green belt (6th Kup) This is the colour of the grass. An exciting period for the student as they are feeling that a lot of techniques are now starting to click. This is the period where most students start to feel like they "get it", it's all making sense. Blue tag (5th Kup), Blue belt (4th Kup) This is the colour of the sky. Students are literally taking flight now as they are often able to start helping lower grades or demonstrating techniques under the watchful eye of an instructor. Red tag (3rd Kup), Red belt (2nd Kup) Red is the heat of the sun. Taekwondoin at red belt stages are in the last ranks of the kup system and are preparing for their junior- instructor level ranks. Time here should be spent polishing all techniques as there shouldn't be weak areas as they pass 1st Kup. Black tag (1st Kup), "Black" belt Black is the vastness of space. Given the size of the earth and space this represents, when they look back, how far the student has come but that black belt is the beginner of a whole new and much larger journey. While 16 year olds get a full black belt (or dan in Korean) starting at 1st Dan and working up to 9th Dan, under 16 year olds get a half-red/ half-black belt (or poom in Korean) to show that they have achieved the rank but don't have the physical maturity. The Kukkiwon isn't concerned with coloured belts. It neither lists what they should be nor the criteria to attain them. It says that only 4th Dans and above can promote students to gup rank. That's it. The WTF is not concerned with any belts and just requires a Kukkiwon rank for competing. Kind of, but more in the sense that they aren't a dan rank yet. For example in the UK a dan rank can open a school, a poom can't. Correct. The 3rd Poom would be higher and would line up in the senior position in class. If the instructor was absent, the 1st Dan would be in charge (as a poom cannot be a full instructor). A more clarifying example may be though - if you were promoted to 3rd Dan a month ago and another student was promoted to 3rd Poom a year ago, the 3rd Dan would be senior. So think of it as within a given rank (e.g. 3rd) a Dan is more senior regardless of time in rank. Hopefully the above clarified it. Under 16 but because they aren't a full dan it's kind of between... It's actually more complex because if you start from poom, you can get to 4th Poom at 17. So, while generally Poom is for under 16s, you can go up to 4th Poom and be older than 16.
Very nice post above. It was most informative & I enjoyed reading it. Thank you for providing that info. Learning how others do things & define things helps us to understand each others methods, which IMHO, brings us a wee bit closer. Thanks!
I'm happy to make the (rather large) PDF of the booklet I've made available online if you're interested...
Just because they are small or rather insignificant, doesn't mean we can refute their existance . The kwans (all 9) still played a massive role in Kukkiwon TKD, so to trace Kukkiwons roots back, we HAVE to study the history of the Kwans. Even Gen. Choi, Nam Tae Hi, and Han Cha Kyo's ODK (maybe even the later Chang Heon) has roots that can be traced back to Chung Do Kwan. So I don't think that we can simply dissmiss the Kwans as "un-important" simply because they aren't a major governing body of TKD. Ding Ding Ding!!!! That's the way I've always viewed TKD, and the way that I still prefer to view it. A big umbrella yes, but it's a heck of a lot smaller than Kung Fu or Karate. And IMHO this helps with the unisity of TKD, as the stigma of "pure" or "real" TKD get's dropped. As we're not practicing counter-TKD's (NK vs. SK), we're simply practicing different styles of TKD; which in essence they are. Your views? Oh god please don't think there's any hatred on my side!!! I'm just a fly on the wall trying to learn as much about TKD as I possibly can (which I might add, this thread is helping beautifully). But I can definatly sympathize with knowing the history of TKD, and all the variations of TKD at that. Speaking of, I was planning on starting a thread to ask about some of Gen. Choi's writings, but since.... Could you possiblely recommend some books by Gen. Choi mostly with regards to the actually MA aspect of TKD? or for that matter, any good books about the Chang Heon; history, practices, custums, etc. etc.?
