Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Zatoichi1, Dec 23, 2010.
The only Kyokushin guy I ever met was fairly tubby, He couldn't get up off the ground after breakfalling Drills. and the big guys at my ****o Ryu "low contact" club hit harder than him, plus he was slow and didn't seem that fit or conditioned. He'd come from Ipswich in SE QLD AU if anyone wanted context. He was also a Second or Third Dan. I've seen the Shihan from that club (also fat and rather old, not that that matters) He was there once and never came back. It's like he couldn't handle anything different because it wasn't "Kyokushin" I have nothing but mad respect for kyokushin Students and don't in any way doubt it's effect as an art or self defence, But What i saw was very off putting.
There are instructors of every style who do not "walk the walk", not just Kyokushin, so always check out the school thoroughly before investing your time and money.
I agree totally Sensei Klein
i merely took me by surprise as I'd expected Kyo Guys to be more like Thai boxers for being so hard core. as opposed to how i found this Guy.
The other thing I'd say is that people change. A guy could be a state wrestling champ at 18 and then be out of shape in his middle age. The Kyokushin guy you met could have been suffering from injuries that took him away from training. He could be trying to get back into it. Etc, etc. There have been times when I've been in really good condition and times (especially coming back from an injury) when my conditioning was definitely less than stellar. Even professional fighters can change from fight to fight. One time you are watching them and they are a cardio king and the next they are gassing after the second round.
I'm not saying, btw, we shouldn't try to stay in good condition. But I would not write a guy off too quickly just because they were a bit out of shape. That can change (both for the better and for the worse)...
Just look at Ricky Hatton between fights.
I've struggled with cardio (and all fitness TBH) my entire martial arts time.
I'd still like to think I'll give someone a run for their money though.
I personally think that to attempt to create a "superior art" You'd need to train in more the tkd and kyo! Every MA has different ways of doing things, some things work better than others. If it was me I'd train pretty hardcore in almost any art I could have access to!! bjj, itf and wtf tkd, muai thai, karate - the works!! Train hard perfect it to the best of your ability; then start to work on merging the best points of each art to create a hybrid! Realistically this will take years. But I reckon that to create something truly great it takes a lot of time and effort!
Jack of all trades, master of none.
You do realize that a large number of the more widely practiced martial arts in the world today come from the process of combination/refinement? Kyokushin itself was originally a combination of shotokan and goju-ryu (along with some elements of muay thai) and refinements/modifications based on the predilections of its exponents (Mas Oyama being the most notable). Similar process with judo, various other forms of karate, sambo, muay thai, savate, brazilian jiu-jitsu, and taekwondo to name a few.
Arts change over time, as people learn techniques and methods from elsewhere, or invent them on their own. Even within the same art, different teachers and schools will emphasize and specialize in a specific area. I've been to taekwondo schools where sparring allowed for takedowns, low kicks, ground fighting, knees, and elbows. I've been to other taekwondo schools where black belts didn't know what a hook punch was.
Of course, there comes the issue of when does a given art become something else. If you allowed leglocks into judo competition, would it still be judo, another type of judo, or another art altogether? What about adding neck cranks? What about adding punches? There must come a tipping point where it's morphed into something different and new.
My favorite Matial arts related saying ever.
Yes. It's a very pithy saying that, at the end of the day, doesn't convey any useful information other than the fact that the person saying it doesn't agree with something someone else is doing. I don't personally see how adding low kicks and conditioning to one's TKD practice is going to make it inferior. But that's just me.
It is a very old saying and there is good reason for that...because as humans we tend to have a tendency to spread ourselves far too thin and need to be reminded to focus.
However, I agree with your statement. An 'old saying' can be 'good', but also misused. Mastery of something so tight and restricted can also be bad. If, for example, I mastered the letter 'J' but refused to learn the rest of the alphabet because I wanted to concentrate on my mastery of 'J' it is obviously not a good thing. I, for one, think there is room to broaden the scope of study without the danger of becoming 'master of none'.
Jack of all trades. master of non is a saying that doesnt work with martial arts in my view.
The reason I say that is because a real no holds barred fight or situation where you are forced to fight back does not care for rules or styles. Its just a violent messy thing that looks fundamentaly the same no matter what style you do. Plus there are no rules so anything can be done or used. ANYTHING.
With styles you are learning and fighting under certain rulesets, so if you were a master of Taekwondo you still will not know alot of things needed for a real violent encounter. The same can be said for all styles. Each misses something. So to look at all styles and intergrate them is actualy closer to becoming a master of undiluted fighting, than mastering just one style.
The other thing for me is that I try to become a master of all trades when it comes to martial arts. I may not do it but I give it a damm good go.
The saying, "Jack of all trades..." does have validity in martial arts in that one should be able to find a particular strength and then train it to the point where it is ingrained in the body (muscle memory) and reliable. In MMA, it is often said that a good fighter has to be competent in all areas, but also needs to excel at at least one.
My point was that this particular saying is also used as a simple way to condemn other people's methods, thoughts, or systems without the effort required to actually make a well stated and valid argument. Furthermore, I think that in this case, it is a non sequitur. As I said, I can't see how adding conditioning and low kicks to one's TKD practice could make one a "master of none."
Because of the drop kick and spinning kick, that is the only thing they are similar in.
Done both when i was younger, not to bash TKD but kyokushin was the hardest thing i have ever done, the sparring in class was 50/50 meaning that at some point we really went at it. The leg kicks where hell and we did not have any protection.
The kicks are not done the same way either, in TDK they aim for speed to score points in competition, while kyokushin aims to really KO an opponent.
The conditioning was also hell in kyokushin, after a grueling class we would often finish off everything with a tone of bodyweight squats, push ups and sit ups.
I made the switch to tae kwon do from kyokushin after a year and a half, sparring was very hard to get into for me in TKD, since i was used to punch so much and use the leg kick.
I took the decision to go back to TKD because its the art i like the most, at my age being older its all for fun.
Bare in mind that i compare only 2 schools, the TKD school and the kyokushin school that i went to, maybe there are other TKD schools that are tougher then the school i went to.
My tkd school did not have the front kick, we where discouraged to punch even in close range, the TKD school i visited last week as a boxing base, teacher did boxing and combines it with TKD, which i think is awesome.
Its never any harm to take inspiration from another art to improve your own. I have never studied any form of karate so I can't comment directly on the techniques, but the conditioning exercises(I'm not only referring to knuckle, thats another issue entirely, muscle, etc) and training ideas are something you could adapt to training.
However I don't buy the idea that TKD has little/no low kicking techniques(Low being below the belt). The three basic kicks, front, side and round(ITF call it 'turning') could be used. Honestly if you are approaching sparring/fighting with a TKD mindset, you'll just be a TKD fighter with a couple of Kyokushin techniques.
Having trained in both (Shobukai Karate, Rhee Taekwondo) for a good number of years, my conclusions are:
* punches are exactly the same
* blocks are almost exactly the same (with more variety in karate)
* stances are similar (again, with more variety in karate
* kicks are almost exactly the same (except taekwondo has more variety, plus a far more devastating side kick)
* karate stays on the ground while taekwondo encourages getting airborne
* coloured belt gradings happen quicker in Taekwondo, but black belt gradings happen a lot slower.
* both kick ass
I've never heard of Shobukai before. Is it actually a Kyokushin offshoot, or something else?
Thank you all for your input. I will certainly adapt and become more creative with my art. I'm a 4th Dan in WTF and it's time for me to create my own style, so your feedback will be very helpful.
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