Systema

systema = another joke in the martial arts world.

 

I don't feel anything about what people should do or should not do about what they see as questionable practices in self-defense, especially when they don't know what they are talking about.

Since I don't have anything else better to with my time today....

 

Well you obviously do feel something about it as you seem to be giving a pretty emotional response to some of the concerns raised here.


So why don't the critics know what they are talking about?
Which parts are they incorrect on?

Instead of a long winded overly wordy answer which doesn't really say anything why not take an active part in the discussion?

 

Dean,

You're right...I should have been more active in this thread...my bad. It must have been another guy named Ken Good posting all the other responses contained in this now 10-page thread.

Instead of a offering short, non-winded response to my post you may consider learning how to read with comprehension. I didn't say everybody who is criticizing doesn't know what they are talking about.

 

All,

It's been interesting, fun and in some cases useful.
But I do think this particular thread has run it's course for me.

I am going save my fingers and brain power to try and perfect Systema Levitation and Shape-Shifting techniques at a yet to be revealed school we are opening up North of Cleveland at a secret underground location.

Look for further details if you are part of our stealth network....

If you are not part of that network, don't worry we will post on YouTube.

Have a great one all!

 

Like Dean alluded, it's important to question systems that are marketed as self defence, it's a serious thing to state that you can teach people to protect themselves.

If you guys are presenting to the public that systema training will provide you with decent skills to be able to protect yourself against unprovoked violence, then you guys have to accept that your system will be and should be criticized, and you guys should be open to criticism. What I've seen from instructors here in response to some questioning here are presenting Vlad's individual abilities as proof, veiled challenges, trolling, and deeming questioners as 'not worthy' of a response - not really what I'd expect from self defence instructors to be honest.

I also believe that is your responsiblity as instructors of self defence to be open and honest regarding any percieved flaws within the system, and to consistently re-evaluate your training methods, techniques and strategies.

What if someone trains in a part of systema that you personally find highly questionable and they walk around with a false sense of security or understanding, or worse yet attempt to use it to defend themselves or their someone else using that aspect of systema?

Seriously do neither you Ken, Rob p or Martin Wheeler believe that it is important to be open and honest regarding any perceived flaws in systema, seeing as you are proclaiming to teach self defence skills to professionals and vulnerable people?

Do you guys believe it's ok to let people beleive that they can [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJDnMDJVWmQ"]strike someone and cheer them up[/ame], or [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZqcQDabPCQ&feature=channel"]that it's likely that they will be able to defend an aggressive knife attack by wrapping hand bag straps round an attacker's wrist? [/ame]

Do none of you see any validity in the questions and criticisms regarding systema?

I like the words of Richard Dimitri [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOzi4dJK37I&feature=related"]here[/ame] 'think, don't just take everything they give you at face value, think'.

 

Is this serious or really just trolling?

Veiled challenges? Trolling? Each of the Systema instructors here has been clear and open in their explanations, invited anyone interested to attend training sessions, offered to attend events arranged by other people and made some lengthy posts explaining various things including, in Ken's case his training of high-level professionals

Questioning is built into the training, it's an important aspect of how a person develops - you would see that if you ever attended any of our training sessions. There is no fail-safe technique, nothing is presented as such, in fact Systema is not even technique based, despite how some people might attempt to represent it.

Criticism is good and healthy - when it is based on experience and facts. When it is based on speculation and/or agenda driven it's less valuable. When the experience is repeatedly offered, refused, yet the criticisms continue.... then I'm at a loss to know how to repsond

The examples you present yet again are, as has been repeatedly stated, not shown as "fail-safe" techniques or first-response solutions. The fact you keep referencing them as such when no-one in the Systema world would take them as "that is what we must do because Vlad says so" shows at the least a major mis-understanding of the training and approach

There are no quick easy answers to self-defence, but, having trained with many people, both from TMA and RBSD backgrounds (including many of those you reference), I find the Systema method and approach the most comprehensive, effective and healthy. I had a lot of questions when I started, so I asked them and when other questions arise I will ask those too. It's not a problem , in my experience with Mikhail and Vladimir it's welcomed and embraced as part of the learning - if you don't ask how can you learn?

Now I'm sure you will choose to interpret that in a detrimental way to suit the point of view or message you want to put across. That's fine, that's the internet!

There's plenty of feedback coming back into the training sessions from the professional guys working with us, not to mention the few odd scrapes that some of the younger lads get themselves into. It's always good to channel that direct personal experience back into the training. That's my benchmark for how the training is progressing, the real life feedback from those around me. That's the criticism I take on board.

 

Yeah my bad I'll admit that. Sorry I think I must have got my threads mixed up, I've been following a number of "Systema" threads.

 

Dean, this was your post # 140.

Ironically In post #139 Mr Good had this to say:

"Any man-made construct should completely open to honest criticism"

 

Good points Rob. As you know from RSF I sometimes took issue with too much softwork in systema clips as I saw it.

Having been to your class and seeing some of your clips. As well as other instructors like Mr. Wheeler for example, I can really appreciate what you are saying. There's been some excellent feedback and discussion here from various Systema instructors. Really refreshing. And I for one appreciate it, and the opportunity to hear from them in what I think has been quite a candid way.

Dudelove/ Marcus you need to take a chill pill mate. You're being a bit of a tool to Rob now. Rob is a good guy and a good SD instructor, you will not have any problems going to his class and seeing for yourself what systema training is like first hand.

It's not on Rob to prove a bunch of things for you on nuetral ground, things that he hasn't himself even claimed or been filmed doing.

Styles are full of lots of people, we aren't all responsible for everyone else and what everyone does. Even top practitioners. As someone has said they are human, and we all make mistakes.. to paraphrase.

 

You are right cloudz I do need to chill. Based on past experiences I have MAJOR problems with displays like [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eak-m2iwI7Q&feature=channel"]this[/ame], [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJDnMDJVWmQ"]this[/ame] and [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWE7kCXnRd0"]this[/ame], because know that they are simply psychological manipulation of a sycophant to entice gullible people to learn from them.

Rob has suggested that the first 2 clips are the healing aspect of systema, and even then I take issue with the claims of being able to 'cheer people up' and 'make them think' with strikes and putting it on a DVD. The last one involving a demo by Vlad I can't see how it develops an attribute related to combat or healing, Mr Genge has said that Vlad only did it when requested but I don't see why, other than to entice gullible people (pulling people down by wrapping their thoughts around your hand, c'mon)?

I was also ****ed that instructors of the style didn't have a problem with the weapons defence 'possiblities'/techniques shown [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZqcQDabPCQ&feature=channel"]here[/ame], [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPO_MZvCI_I&feature=channel"]here[/ame], [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnxlXPmLTjo&feature=channel"]here[/ame], [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iffEsyjh8M&feature=youtube_gdata"]here[/ame] and [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B07oBO-ddVI"]here[/ame]. IMO they would require exceptional attributes to be used, and would be suicidal for the average person or average systema practioner to try to attempt.

The fact that no instructors stated that the 'possiblities'/techniques shown in the clips were highly improbable for the average practioner to pull off, nor that they saw anyhing wrong with the psychological manipulation being performed on video by the chief intructors in the clips, made me alarmed and angry. I simply find it irresponsible for instructors proclaiming to teach self defence not to be open and honest regarding questionable things in their system or what is being shown by their chief instructor..

My attitude is silly I admit, I can't be grand protector of people vulnerable to such tricks. I don't know you cloudz so I can't take your word for it, I'd feel more comfortable if it was neutral... Rob never answered when I asked what his intention was for meeting up after he stated that he's never done the things I want to test and that he wasn't annoyed.

Rob said we could get together and do whatever, he made the offer. You made me rethink though, I do actually see benefit in some aspects of systema and I should take it as an opportunity to use it as a chance to explore it with a UK rep.

I think that if their cheif instructors are showing questionable things on publicly available DVD's that are marketed as self defence intructionals, they should speak up like Mr Genge did... My conclusion is that they don't see anything seriously questionable, otherwise they couldn't in good conscience be silent.

 

I think you are right to have concerns, ask questions make some criticisms etc.

I very much agree, for example with the quote you posted from Scott Sonnen.

I would also agree to a point that some of the hitting drills can be abused. I noticed too in the class setting that the guy i was training with at the time would aim for my solar plexus. I mean you're just standing there, so it can feel like a cheap shot..

My attitude towards the 'dodgy' techniques is that this sort of thing is pretty commonplace.. Sometimes there's a fine dividing line between using high percentage "sensible" tools, and being creative on the fly in unpredictable circumstances.

I think you have to tread carefully when saying "that'll never work". Chances are there is some situation and some guy in it and an opportunity will be present and wham. That low percentage thing just became prefectly valid..

I think there's a bit of room for imagination and creativity in self defence. Sometimes it is the unexpected and surprise factor that gives an edge in difficult situations.

This is just to suggest that a portion of technique training that is unorthodox in my opinion isn't the end of the world. As long as certain things are understood and a much larger portion are of the higher percentage variety..

I think we met briefly once at an Alex Koxma seminar years ago in Gloucester, the first ones he did when he got back from Thailand. they were organised by Chris. You also know a good buddy of mine "inthespirit" from one of Alex retreats. We all know and have worked with RobP.

I might be wrong, but if I've placed you right you were one of the first guys there on the Sat morning, and i was in the car park doing some tai chi form.. and we exchanged some greetings.. ?

I know for example you and your ex teacher Simon used to post on Chris' old Neijia board when I used to post. So even though we don't really know eachother properly, I feel as though I know of you - if that makes sense.. We seem to have mixed in some similar Neijia circles in the past so have something in common there at least.

Seriously, RobP is one of the nicest guys I've met in martial arts. His class and the guys in it was a cool experience for me. I can't imagine you getting any bother going there, whatever the circumstances. Just an honest and sincere opinion, that's all.

It's worth it in my opinion. If you still have concerns you could take a friend with you ?

I think just because something is questionable, doesn't make it flat out wrong to ever have done it or tried it in the first place. It a question of having a balanced approach, and a perspective that whilst recognising "what works" leaves a bit of room for creativity and impromptu options.

It's really the principle than the actual technique. You keep bringing up the baseball cap thing. Throwing an object to distract, obstruct view - what's wrong with that ?

I think you'll get well balanced training with Rob. Both 'softwork' and 'hardwork', conditioning, weapons and multiples work. maybe some techniques that are risky. But sometimes that's just the nature of the beast. From what I have heard Rob talking about knife work, he is the first to recognise the inherent risks and dangers.

I just think that going to a couple classes will give you a healthier perspective from which to judge systema than just the clips and what others have to say on the subject.

regards.

 

I see your point, my issue is that it should be explained that it is an extremely unlikely option (although I don't know if Vald does on the tapes and in the seminars). I agree with Mick Coup regarding that kind of thing here.

Here's a quote.

I agree, I hope that is understood by practitioners and purchasers of the instructional DVD's.

Sorry I don't remember you, but thanks anyway.

I read an online back and forth between a detractor and Rob offered to 'come down and try what you like' and let's just say I'd prefer to do it at a meet.

He doesn't throw the cap in his face, he strips the gun out of the UKE's hand using the clasp of the baseball cap, [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPO_MZvCI_I&feature=channel"]here[/ame]. What do you think of that cloudz?

What do you think of the psychic demo, and the 'strike that cheer you up' clips?

 

I think it's rather improbable.. sure. But then it's improbable that you will survive a gun encounter with someone determined to shoot you, no matter what you might do.. So in light of that I think too much protesting is futile and not worth my energy to be honest.

I think they probably have more in common with stage hypnotism, suggestion and the stuff Derren Brown does than say.. MMA.

Do I think exploring psychology and mind control pointless ?

No, I probably don't, on reflection. Then again, I think in light of how things work these days blending that into the teaching of martial arts and self defence instruction can be risky and leaves you open to criticism.

 

Psycologically someone threatening you with a weapon has not made the decission to harm you. In this situation so long as the movement is not subconciously deamed threatening the attacker will conciously have to decide to act with the time delay that would create. This is a very difficult thing to replicate in testing. Another thing needed would be access to a firearm and simmunition as the muzzle velocity of a bb gun is too low.

Having said that if you own a gas powered bb gun it would be an interesting experiment so long as you don't mind it getting knocked around. I personally believe testing is an essential component of any martial art / artists development so would be interested in the results.

 

Laser tag equipment would be ideal as long as the gun can register a hit anywhere. You might need a bunch of sensors. Anyway, lasers would be the best because if you can dodge a laser you can dodge a bullet

 

That's a fair enough comment. I remember somone on Bullshido writing that unless your learning from someone who has survived weapons attacks walk away, and even then they were probably lucky.

So you agree it's garbage then, but from a different line of reasoning. I've never been attacked by someone with a gun but hell parrying, stepping of the line and punching them in the jaw (basic boxing) and then running is a better line of defence than that.

Your dropping context. It was at a seminar of self defence system, what relevance does manipulating a sychophant in a group setting have to do with self defence training?

I think theres also a risk that it will create gullible and hyper suggestible students, as I've personally experienced several teachers who use these 'explorations of psyche' to manipulate, and have spoken to others who've experienced the same.

I'm digressing but personally I'm very weary of systems/schools that are presented as being a complete path of spirituality, psychology, exercise, and combat simultaneously. Exercise and psychology are inherent to a martial arts system but as a tool for the complete exploration and actualization of the human psyche? If they do exist they are extremely rare.

 

An expensive thing to break!

 

That's your interpretation. It might well be based on previous experience with other people. It might not. I've seen a lot of the "empty force" briagde myself, Peter Young, Rich Moonie, the "qi knockout" people. I'm very aware of how they operate and the mechanics of building suggestion-prone, unthinking, unquestioning students. It's not something I'd ever watn to have anything to do with

It's been repeatedly stated these are not "first option" techniques, far from it

You've been repeatedly invited to come along to class. There you would have ample opportunity to air your concerns to my students

The opportunity is there