Apart from the suwari waza being in gradings, why do we do it? what is the benifit that we get from it? anyone dropped it for more tachiwaza practice? what would i be losing if i drop it? im really starting to see it being more a waste of time than a benefit to productive and effective tech. surely if my main aim is tech that works it would be better to always practice tachiwaza. anyone think of a benifit i would loose in my tech if i dropped it for more standing????
Suwari waza strenghtens the hips and legs and prepares you for ground fighting.. BUT I much prefare actual study of ground fighting itself. I DO think that, as it is taught, there is no great value in it as such.When we down someone we may go into suwari took imobilise however training in executing techniques from suwari waza never seamed worth the time better to concentrate on standing techniques. regards koyo
I tend to think of suwariwaza as a thing of tradition that should be taught for tradition sake, just not emphasised over the 'usefule' stuff. Saying you should drop it because it isn't productive is like saying Kendo players shouldn't bother with hakama, or french termonology shouldn't be used in fencing. It's good to remember where your art comes from. And anyway, suwariwaza isn't entirely useless. I find it's a good way of teaching new students that power comes from the hips up, not the arms down. (which has been said before on the MAP). All the best - Jon
To inflict pain on us newbies! Or how about as a building block to hanmi handachi techniques which although unlikely in a traditional sense (ie I don't expect to be attacked whilst in sitting in seiza in a royal court), however I may end up on my knees having been attacked and the attacker is following in to finish me off. A drill we do is for nage to stand with his back to uke, uke (on his own timing to try to help with the feeling of "unexpected") pushes nage forceably. Nage genuinely falls, or preferably forward breakfalls, either way before getting the chance to get back up, uke is straight back in with an attack of their choice. Nage is lucky if he/she manages to get onto their knees let alone stand up.
Suwari-waza in Aikido are partially a throwback to the idori techniques that are done in Daito-ryu aikijujutsu and in a number of schools of koryu jujutsu. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-mbk1Ftak0"]Daito-ryu aikijujutsu as performed by the Shintojushinkai.[/ame] The majority of koryu jujutsu schools have their first teachings in their respective traditions from a seated posture, as it's low to the ground and less dangerous for trainees doing ukemi and it also teaches them how to utilize the fine points of techniques taught to you via using the kahanshin (the lower part of your body.) over muscular strength. Koryu jujutsu ryuha such as Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, Takenouchi-ryu, Takagi-ryu, Sosuishi-ryu, Shosho-ryu and other ryuha all start the majority of their elementary technical training from idori/suwari waza. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWYLIdrku_Q"]Idori from Sosuishi-ryu[/ame] Even Kodokan judo teach their kime no kata in this format; Idori and Tachiai later. The Kime no kata is an amalgamation of various selected koryu jujutsu techniques applied to various situations and scenarios, which are pretty much akin to what koryu teach. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvxJYM_LsHw"]Kodokan Judo Kime No Kata[/ame] As has been stated earlier on in this thread, suwari waza provides you with these benefits; They give you the chance to fine tune your techniques and "put them under a microscope" so to speak. It helps with learning how to use the hips, rather than the muscular strength of the arms. It is safer for the shoshinsha (beginner) to learn from the ground up. It strengthens the trainees legs, hips and core. It reminds trainees and more advanced practicioners about the roots of aikido and how certain techniques evolved therein. It also helps practicioners understand how to negotiate certain situations when fighting from the ground, or on the knees against either an opponent who is either standing or who is also on his/her knees.
I agree that it is mostly for tradition's sake, but some of the suwariwaza actully translates to the tachiwaza. Not all though. Most of the time they are merely exercises to help you understand kuzukshi.
I think taking suwari waza out of your Aikido practise is the wrong way to go. I have had similar conversations over the years about removing various appects from our syllabus. It has been suggested that we remove Kumi Tachi from the syllabus as some style don't practise this at all. Within my style we have 6 koryu no kata ! Sadly in some groups these are not all practised, as only two are required for grading purposes. I believe that once something is taken out of the system it can be easily lost. Although I practise a different style and am not familiar with you syllabus, would not practising suwari waza leave you at a dissadvantage when taking examination.
Thanks for your input guys, got a lot to think about here. still aint sure it has any martial or effective attribute that cannot get from just tachiwaza, i understand how it can make the hips and legs stronger but i dont think you would get that kind of benifit unless doing it every day. i may keep it once a week andtry to focus more on those points though. cheers
Well that's the thing, training methods used in aikido sometimes aren't combative in nature. They build attributes that sometimes are though. Since you don't use your legs for propulsion as much, suwari-waza makes you look at the actual mechanics of the techniques being used.
I tend to use suwari waza on the guys when they are "going for it a bit too much".As you say it "limits" them to really studying the principles.Sadly I have come into contact with some who have dropped koshi nage (not user friendly) :woo:You can imagine my reaction. regards koyo
I always liked koshi nage. That's over the hips right? Still there wasn't much of that in Ki Aikido. Shame really. Simple and effective. What more can you ask for?
In the thread..things that make you go grrr. I posted martial artists who adopt a spiritually superior attitude to hide the fact that they could not fight sleep. It is these types who have put forward that atemi and weapons practice is "unaiki". So now they have also dropped koshi nage. The most ridiculous thing yet......UKEMI should be called escape technique because BREAKfall sounds too intimidating:woo::woo: I was told by Chiba shihan that "true martial artists shall always be in the minority" More and more I am finding this to be true. regards koyo
Am I missing something in logical progression here? If 'I don't think that you would get that sort of benefit unless doing it every day' then why only do it once a week?! Perhaps it is worthwhile doing it every day, lets say for a month, and then see what the results are. If, as quoted, 'Surely if my main aim is tech that works it would be better to always practice tachiwaza', actually, you would probably be better off spending six months doing boxing. Very few problems in the world that a good jab-cross combination won't solve (and they are certainly a lot quicker to get the hang of than aikido techniques!). In every disciplined practice there are stuff that we don't enjoy, whether it is doing scales on the piano or particular moves in yoga. Most of us have probably been fearful of breakfalls when we first started, but as we progress it is precisely those aspects of aikido that we didn't enjoy or didn't understand that become the most 'joyful' part of our training. Rather than considering swari-waza as an inferior form of tachiwaza, treat it as a stand-alone (pun intended!) way of organizing your body in its own right. When I do swari waza I find that my relationship with the other person, the way I receive their attack, the way that I move, the way that I am aware of my centre (or lack of it), the way that I cause the other person to to unbalance are all different than in tachiwaza. Like most things, the more that you do it, the better you get and the more fun it becomes. In my own experience, in the times that I have dropped swariwaza from my own training I tend to get slightly lazy and careless in other aspect of my techniques. Given that aikido prides itself on being a set of values as well as merely a collection of 'combat techniques', I always feel when I get the odd insight and feeling of powerful swariwaza that I am very connected to the teaching of O'sensei and other teachers that I see as exemplars of what I am trying to achieve, and I feel very centered in my aikido practice both in the immediate sense of the technique that I am doing as well as the feeling that I am maintaining respect for the path that I am following. It is easy to try and judge that 'I need this but don't need that', but as other posters have commented once you start dropping segments from the total package you tend to end up with a meaningless collection of dis-connected moves rather than a unified body of knowledge. We have all smiled when karate tyro's claim 'I don't need kata, it doesn't help me fight', or even claim that breathing exercises don't make you more powerful. If you wish to train in a 'modern' style, then you are a liberty to do what you wish within that style, but if you wish to be able to claim that you are a student of a 'traditional' or 'classical' style, your main responsibility is to maintain the highest level of training that you can - everything else will follow from that. However, there is no question that swariwaza can be detrimental to the knees, and it should not be done in such a way as to cause damage to the body - it is not meant as a punishment! Doing it for five, ten minutes a class will build up your capability in a natural way, and hopefully you will soon be complaining if the class has finished and you haven't had a chance to do your swariwaza techniques. Regards, David
One of the benefits of sawari-waza is that you can't really run away. You must dealt with the attack or get hit. In theory anyway.
Well we don't practice it often... but it tends to help us learn (and remember) to lead with our hips and drop out weight. Plus it's good for checking your technique. Just my 2 cents.
More than suwari-waza I think that shikkou is essential to aikido tanren. And if done correctly I think it has no detrimental effects on the knees: IME it strengthens them (having had a lot of knee problems from various other dodgy martial practice!). It is vital for two reasons: 1) Training flexibility and strength in the hips through all planes. 2) Training flexibility in the inner thigh muscles and understanding the relationship between the inner and outer muscles of the thighs and butt and pivoting from the base of the spine. This is the essential in-yo of aikido training, and also works opposing muscle groups. And of course, if your shikkou has a firm foundation, your suwari-waza is easy! Prescription: 5-10 mins a day!
I tend to use it at the conclusion of techniques on ocasion. But after reading these posts I may emphasise it a little more. So I shall offer the "thanks" of the students to you now regards koyo
