Sun Taiji....Too Lazy to Tie Coat application

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Subitai, Mar 22, 2016.

  1. Subitai

    Subitai Valued Member

    Thanks for your guidance dude...I'll try to be more update in the future.

    To Dan Bian:
    All I was trying to do was share content on this board. I wasn't saying that I think everyone sucks or that I'm better. "To my knowledge" is just what it means, "to my knowledge". Take it as you will.

    However my knowledge isn't limited to just videos (to say so is a bit insulting) I've traveled and met some of the best from within my own family. By that I mean when I went to China and met my Si Gung Sun Jianyun. Who, when she was still alive was considered one of the 5 treasures of CMA. I've seen how they train, I did some training with them and what they do. I've also met other practitioners from the same tradition. I would say that my opinion is better informed than just from watching Youtube.

    All Taiji can be similar yes in some aspects...but they are NOT ALL the same engine. That is incorrect, did you know that Sun style is comprised of all three internal styles? Taiji, Xing yi & bagua. Together they form "San TI" = the three embodiment's of internal CMA.

    About the fighting,

    Yes I've done UFC in USA and AFC in Russia and also a couple of championships in Full contact San Shou at 85kg. I've fought smoker matches in private and allot on the street when I was younger.

    People look at those videos and think "That's what he's like?" But that would be a mistake. Just as MMA has improved since the early days, so have I.
    I can assure you that I'm not that person now....heheh I'm much better! :)

    Seriously, I get asked all the time why I stuck so much with CMA and did not fully convert over to MMA. Because I love it and it's my passion and I have never stopped training since then.

    Sorry for standing on the soap box now:

    Oftentimes what I'm trying to teach people is how to use their traditional kung fu in order to "Set It Up". You know, lots of people have developed good body structure or massive striking power and things like that. But those things don't set people up.
    I use my fighting experiences to teach people how to "Set it up". That's why people come to train with me.

    Lastly if it's ok with Frodocious, I would like to post more videos to this thread and to continue sharing. Albeit as per his instructions.
  2. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I would have thanked you for a useful post, except for that last sentence. :dunno:
  3. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    That's cool - and I like that he's sharing. But when there's no context to it, what is there to say? It's a discussion forum, not youtube.

    You're the one who keeps asserting that you have not seen videos of other people demonstrating the same things.

    See now, this is context. It frames what you are demonstrating, and to be hoenst, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts regarding what you observed/experienced.

    I was aware of this. And, why did Sun Lutang devise his own style of Taijiquan? After his experience, first in Xingyi, then Bagua and finally Taijiquan, he recognised the similarities between the arts, and codified them into his own system. Sun's own taijiquan experience, if I remember comes from Yang, Wu and Chen styles (I stand to be corrected, having not refreshed the history of his Taiji in a few years).
  4. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Would like to hear more about your "set up".

    IMO, the "entering strategy - set up" is the most important part of the MA training. Many people love to talk about IP/IS (internal power and internal structure). Very few people like to talk about "entering strategy - set up".

    The major part of my teaching is also to teach people how to "set it up" (besides finish moves). For example, I can teach a student

    - 25 different ways to set up a "head lock".
    - 20 different ways to set up a "single leg".
    - ...

    The "entering strategy" and "finish strategy" are my major interest. The way that I look at this is, first you have developed your favor "finish moves", you then develop all possibility ways to make that happen. The advantage of this training approach is you will have a clear goal in fighting. You will not punch your opponent back because he punches you, kick your opponent back because he kicks you. You will have a "plan" and you will stick to your "plan". You will fight the way that you want to fight and not the way that your opponent wants you to fight.
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
  5. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member


    At 3.22 of your clip.

    - Your left hand contact on your opponent's left arm.
    - Your right hand attack his face.
    - He uses right hand to deal with your right attacking hand.
    - You use left hand to deal with his right arm, use his right arm to jam his own left arm, free your right hand, so you can continue your right hand attack while he will have no arm to block you..

    In CMA, this is called "switching hand" strategy. I believe this strategy came from the Bagua system. It's used in the praying mantis system and long fist system a lot. It also exist in the Chang/Yang Taiji such as

    - turn around hammer, fetching arm.
    - step out, deflect, grab, and punch.
    - ...
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
  6. Subitai

    Subitai Valued Member

    Yes John,

    You and I both seem to obsess about set ups. Respect to all your skill.
    Over the last few years I've been seeing allot of your posts about set ups and also you're cool stuff on "Rino guard".

    So, this is alittle off topic from Sun Taiji but to answer you alittle more.

    But my main strength is to follow...that is to say my set ups are in such a way that I use my connections to protect myself in much the same way you do when you grapple and then I follow my opponents reaction.

    It's not about "eye of the tiger" or go get them charging in like a bull. Don't get my wrong, I'll take a free shot 1st if I can get it...but if it's someone I really respect, I Instead prefer to setup and counter. It's not the best for everybody, but it works better as you get older and have more experience.

    Taiji is very much standup grappling...i can do it from the clinch very well. It's some of my very best setups. I haven't made any videos about my grappling however. Up close, I work some on head clinch but mostly arm wraps. Setups for when your arm is wrapping under his arm = AKA and "underhook" and also the reverse "overhook"

    Most of my video work so far has been more a TCMA point of view...I haven't do any of my grapple ones.

    Since you brought hand switch ( I very much agree with you btw) forward this video to about 3:38 sec:

    [ame=]Hung Gar Traditional Skills 3 - Free Drills - YouTube[/ame]

    In this video forward to about 2 min for arm drag to head lock.
    [ame=""]Hung Gar Application Concepts 5 Kiu Sao & Grips Misc - YouTube[/ame]

    Keep in mind...these are not my Taiji versions however.
  7. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    You are welcome to post your videos here, as long as they include some discussion points, as mentioned earlier.

    And, just to let you know I am a 'her' not a 'his'! Althought this is not particularly obvious from my username, so don't worry about it! :)
  8. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    You're thinking of Chen,Pan-ling. Sun learned Hao system from Hao,Wei-chen.

    Some consider his TC in execution to be HI w/TC softness/tactics. No idea,myself.
  9. Subitai

    Subitai Valued Member

    Here again is another video in my series in an attempt to help people with Sun Taiji.

    The section is after one of the many "Open and Close" and it covers San Ti and the transitions all the way to "lazily Tying Coat".

    I can't tell you if it's worthy of discussion. I can only put my stuff out there and see. But from a few thank you's that I get occasionally, I think it's worth it. Of course if anyone has questions I'll try to help.

    [ame=""]Sun Tai Chi San Ti to Fan the Back - YouTube[/ame]
  10. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Because his name wasn't really Sun Lutang that was an honorific, and because he didn't codify anything into his own system. He 'codified' nothing, in a Taoist sense. He just became aware through a lot of practice across multiple styles. :D
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2016
  11. Subitai

    Subitai Valued Member

    Here again is another video in my series in an attempt to help people with Sun Taiji.

    In this section: is what directly follows "Fist under Elbow"... and some details.

    I can't tell you if it's worthy of discussion. I can only put my stuff out there and see. But from a few thank you's that I get occasionally, I think it's worth it. Of course if anyone has questions I'll try to help.

    [ame=""]Sun Tai Chi Application Repulse Monkey - YouTube[/ame]
  12. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    So what made you go for this application? Is it one that is traditionally taught in your system (passed on to you) or one you have developed yourself?

    What are the combative principles you feel it embodies and teaches? How does it differ from others that you have been taught / seen taught?
  13. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Application discussed in that latest video is much the same as what I am taught Play the Fiddle application is in Yang style - an elbow joint lock. Very similar.
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2016
  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    It also has common ground with correct application of the wrestlers arm drag - or the "pump handle" as I call demonstrated here by the immortal Billy Robinson


    Taiji as a grappling art is significantly more refined than people credit, but the lack of applied pressure is why they think that.....well, that and the over-emphasis of esotericism is a lot of schools
  15. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I was teaching similar on Tuesday when I was introducing the students to Tai Chi applications.

    I was using the arm drag from a Hubud drill.

    As we've mentioned in other threads recently, you need to find and understand the common ground to improve your own technique.
  16. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    If you can control on your opponent's arm with wrist and elbow, you should take him down right at that moment. You can generate a lot of power if you "spin" your body into it. There are many different "finish" by applying the same principle. From a wrestler's point of view, if your opponent is not down, your job is not finished yet.

    Last edited: Aug 27, 2016
  17. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award


    If you are rooted, which you should be in all arts, but especially Tai Chi, then you aren't going to pull the opponent off balance.

    It's a timing thing, but you want the opponent moving their front foot for balance as you guide them off line before striking or pushing.

    If you don't then it's just tug of war and one man's will against another.

    Seems like another video for the technique thread.
  18. Subitai

    Subitai Valued Member

    That version of repulse was one of the 1st ones I had learned. It's simple in concept and flows exactly with the form. Hence my choice to pick that one. Notice that it's on the outside of the arm. If I did it on the inside(ala the other arm) exactly the same way, it would leave you open. So when we do it on the inside line it's done differently.

    Combative principles? I often say "if he's already touching me... that skips ahead of the game to when a stick point or touching has been sustained. For example, if your in free push hands or if you've crashed together and contact has been maintained. There are many ways to have entered and have this type of energy put on you or better said "Given to you". But once you have it... it's very important to recognize it and take advantage of it.

    For styles like tai chi...those said above are usually the crux of the problem. It's usually about establishing a closer contact and going from there. It's generally NOT known as an Offensive style. Of course it's that way, Tai chi is in it's very nature, responsive and therefore it works better IMO as a countering style. But from my experience, Tai Chi can be brutally defensive...almost "mean" if you want to go there.

    Others may disagree, but that's how I was trained and so that's how I manipulate the style to work in my favor.

    Allot of my other videos are concerned with entry from a distance and how to create that point.

    As far as other concepts, I give them away all the time in the videos. Cover your center - attack his / The hand doesn't come back empty/ Lead and Follow./ Power that originates from low raises/ Power that originates from on high goes down. / The way into danger is the way out and reverse. ect ect

    How does it differ on what else I've been taught?

    Well in my Yang Version, Repulse also works the outside and inside lines. The targets are similar, the arm and the face ect ect. The set up is different because the styles are different. Tai chi is not about technique, it's about you use yours VS how you read your opponents energy and the methods that follow them.
    It might look like I'm doing step 1, 2 and 3. But that's not how you use it. I could describe it more THOROUGHLY however it'd take me too long...I'd rather just shoot a video on it :)
  19. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    If your opponent has strong rooting, you will need to add your "leg skill" into it. When you pull your opponent's arm, you should use your leg to "spring" one of his leg at the same time.

  20. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I like to go beyond my original Taiji form. I strongly recommend my students to add "leg skill" into their Taiji form. What do you think about this approach?

    Last edited: Aug 27, 2016

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