Subtlety

Recently, reading the armlock thread has got me thinking about the differences between the Takamatsuden as practiced and demonstrated in the Bujinkan and other arts. Though you often see the same or similar techniques in other martial arts, there is one big difference that always comes to the fore and that is in the amount of subtlety built into the technique.

I often wonder why some arts chose to do certain techniques a certain way, and even amongst practitioners of the same art, some people are much more subtle or non-telegraphic than others. If your premise is that you are stronger or faster than the opponent, this might not be as big a deal, but to me subtlety is why ninjutsu is such a devastating martial art. It cheats!

Perhaps this lack of subtlety is what sets apart masters of the Takamatsuden from mere practitioners and another reason why some of the techniques demonstrated by less subtle ninjers look so weak and ineffectual.

 

This is a very important point.

I feel that some people can do subtlety and other pretend at subtlety...see bad video thread.

Subtlety definitely plays a major role in what we study. Without it I'm sure it is much less effective in "Real Combat". Without it it probably comes down to strength and speed.

Yuck!

Though when to introduce the concept to beginners is tricky...

 

Whether it is seen in other arts I cannot really comment...

Though with the jujutsu guys I sometimes spar with...it's not found in modern jujutsu schools (or jiu jitsu???) at all. Lots of strength...

 

Well, telling people not to force things works for me. That by its nature demands subtlety and sensitivity. And mat time. Lots of mat time.

Of course it breaks down in compliant training.

 

In what way are you understanding "subtlety"?

 

Personally I'm more curious about why people in this art make up their own minds as to why it's done differently, instead of finding out.

 

I don't have any experience with ninjutsu, but I understand that there is a degree of "subtlety theory" behind its techniques. Just to chime in with some perspective from another art, many good BJJ practitioners employ subtlety in their game, often with great success.

Once you start rolling with higher level students, it quickly becomes apparent that one of their most effective weapons is their experience. They can tell what you're doing almost before you start doing it; as a beginner, your skill set is pretty limited to a few basic moves that you have memorized to use in a few common situations. The experienced opponent can recognize this, and anticipate what your move is going to be. Thus, subtlety becomes increasingly more important at higher levels of BJJ. Once you realize that others might be thinking a move or two ahead, it becomes desirable to misdirect their expectations. By learning what others expect in a certain scenario, you can take advantage of this knowledge in the application of your techniques. Instead of simply going for the move you want, you have to make it look like you're going for something else, so that it comes as a surprise when you do apply the technique originally intended. The dictionary defines subtle as "difficult to perceive or understand." I think this type of planning ahead and disguising one's actual intent certainly qualifies.

 

You see I think this is where the misunderstanding lies.

Why do you "try" for a technique? Why try, and then attempt to hide the intent???

Do you really go into a "fight" and think "ok im going to wait for an opening, and then apply x technique"???

Plan ahead? No!!!

 

OK you're right. From now on I'll just lie there and hope my opponent chokes himself out.

 

And thats why we have this problem.

 

Yes.

Well why would somebody think that subtlety and not telegraphing, not trying to plan your "next move", would equal laying down and getting beaten?

Hmmm

 

I agree you can try to engineer a fight.

But plan ahead? Still no

Are you seriously suggesting going into a fight thinking that "ok when this guy swings for me, I'm going to onikudaki his ass"?

???

 

It might have something to do with certain people projecting a self-created stereotype on every martial art except their own.
Do you really think what Omicron said is as simple as going in with a single technique in mind and driving at it?
There's a great deal of ad-libbing going on during that flow he was talking about but it's got to start somewhere. Maybe the opponent will offer something to start with, maybe you'll have to.

EDIT: Note, I personally believe in intuitive spontaneous movement rather different from what Omicron is suggesting but you're taking his explanation way too far down that end of the spectrum.

 

Well! I do apologise...

But going back to read it again...it still reads that way.

Maybe others project their ideas on this art too, neh?

 

Oh of course. It happens all the time, but in this case it was kind of getting in the way. And again I don't personally agree with the flowchart approach to followup techniques but it's really a means to the same end. Eventually most people break that framework and when the opponent escapes one thing, the next thing comes spontaneously. It's just hard to internalize an appropriate followup or response to the opponent without having something in mind during early stages of training.

EDIT: Actually the only planning ahead I've come to like came directly from my time in the Bujinkan, and that's backing the bad guy into a proverbial corner and then nailing him when he takes the way out.